Advanced Jets from the Luftwaffe...

[Big Orange]

I have a few questions regarding the advanced jets that were part of the Luftwaffe's lmited arsenal:

1) Was the jet engine invented in Britain, ultimately?

2) Why were jet bombers favoured over jet fighters?

3) Was there often leadership medelling and corruption preventing the widespread and proper use of the Lufwaffe jets?

4) Did the Luftwaffe have primitive stealth aircraft?

5) Were the Luftwaffe experimental aircraft especially prized by Allied engineers and aviator experts?

[Reader3000]

1) no, it was invented by Junkers' company.
2)To follow Hitler's nonsense plans to bomb New York City..
3)Till the end of 1944 they weren't even ready for combat.
4)No. They got one-wing prototypes, but not with stealth.
5)I think so. The V2 engineers around Wernher von Braun were invited/forced to go to the US for working out their rockets.

[Big Orange]

I imagine Luftwaffe jet bombers would be useful, if the Nazis had their hands on Nukes, but thankfully they never did.

[Huck]

I have a few questions regarding the advanced jets that were part of the Luftwaffe's lmited arsenal:

Ok, very short answers:

1) Was the jet engine invented in Britain, ultimately?

Yes and no. Frank Whittle and Hans Von Ohain were working at the same time to complete the first turbojet engine. Hans Von Ohain succeded first. He also installed the first turbojet in a plane. But the first jet engine for aeronautical applications was the one built by Henry Coanda in 1910 (Coanda as in "Coanda effect"). It was not a turbojet but a motorjet, that is the compressor was spun by a piston engine instead of a turbine. The plane fitted with this engine flew for a short hop when the plane accidentally took-off during an engine test run, but it bursted into flames nearly killing Coanda.

2) Why were jet bombers favoured over jet fighters?

They weren't. It's true that Hitler ordered to have attack jet planes by the time of the invasion, in reality the jets were not ready in early 1944. The first jet planes entered service in Nov 1944 with JG7. Fighter bomber version of Me-262 never had priority over the fighter version, despite Hitler's direct order. His orders did not carried too much weight at that point.

3) Was there often leadership medelling and corruption preventing the widespread and proper use of the Lufwaffe jets?

No, they were just confused about jet planes capabilities. Initially the leadearship thought that they won't need jets because war was to be over soon. Jets remained on low priority development though. In mid 1943 when the situation on the fronts worsened significantly the leadership became suddenly interested. But it was already late for that the introduction of jets to have an effect on air war.

4) Did the Luftwaffe have primitive stealth aircraft?

All flying wings have radar stealth properties, Horten Ho IX included, also the use of wood for the airframe helped a bit. However, since most search radars at that time had wide beams on long wavelengths the stealth properties were not so effective as against the tight beams of centimetric radars.

5) Were the Luftwaffe experimental aircraft especially prized by Allied engineers and aviator experts?

Not really. Von Braun team was taken by the Army not by the Air Force. Other than them only a few German engineers became employed in US or UK. The attitude toward was to put them in prison or prevent them from being employed rather than putting them to work. In part this attitude was caused by a sort of a superiority complex, "we won the war", part for business reasons, companies preferred to get funds for their own research not for duplicating German research. This was a big mistake. USSR fully benefited from the experience of German aero engineers. Despite their lag in jet engine development at the end of war, ten years later they were well ahead of the West. German engineers delivered all their promises: they made the most powerful and economic turboprops (they still are!) and the most powerful turbojets (they were until recently, those engines delivered almost 10 tons of thrust, as much as the most powerful of todays engines at M0.8@SL). France also benefited from German engineers know-how.

[SES]

I have a few questions regarding the advanced jets that were part of the Luftwaffe's lmited arsenal:

2) Why were jet bombers favoured over jet fighters?

The first jet planes entered service in Nov 1944 with JG7. Fighter bomber version of Me-262 never had priority over the fighter version, despite Hitler's direct order. His orders did not carried too much weight at that point.


Wrong Huch, Ar 234 flew recce missions over the Normandy beach head in JUNE 1944.
bregds
SES

[Huck]

2) Why were jet bombers favoured over jet fighters?

The first jet planes entered service in Nov 1944 with JG7. Fighter bomber version of Me-262 never had priority over the fighter version, despite Hitler's direct order. His orders did not carried too much weight at that point.

Wrong Huch, Ar 234 flew recce missions over the Normandy beach head in JUNE 1944.

So? It was 1./Versuchsverband ObdL (and later 3./Versuchsverband ObdL) that flew Ar-234 in recce mission at the beginning of the summer of 44. They also flew Me-262 during the same period. Those were not regular squadrons, but testing squadrons. Neither Ar-234 nor Me-262 were operational at that point. Me-262 started and finished first the trials (from March to October 1944). Ar-234 began operations as a bomber in December. All earlier users, like Sonderkommando Götz (later Sperling), Sonderkommando Sommer, Sonderkommando Hecht and so on, were testing units. First fully equipped group was III./KG76, but the first Ar-234 group declared operational was II./KG76, they flew bombing missions during Ardennes offensive. First recce units that received Ar-234 were squadrons 1.(F)33, 1.(F)123, 1.(F)100 in late November 1944. Ar-234 was not operational for recce until 1945. Squadrons of FAGr.1 were the main users.

The only effect of this order of Hitler was that bomber units received the first important deliveries of jet planes (I./KG51 especially, though they received the regular fighter version of Me-262, as the fighter bomber was not delivered until December), but the first operational unit that used jet planes was JG7.

[SES]

Dear Huck,
Let's examine what you said and what I reacted to:

"The first jet planes entered service in Nov 1944 with JG7".

and now you suddenly split words over "operational" and a "regular" unit. I think flying missions in a Versuchverband is also "serving", especially since these were operational missions collecting intelligence and not test flights.
bregds
SES

[Erich]

your all wrong, the first operational 262 fighter unit was Ekdo 262 with 21 kills from July 26, 44 till October 4, 1944 followed by the 33 kills from Kommando Nowotny which was not JG 7 yet. Last kill for this unit was November 9, 44. Test unit Edko. Lechfeld was also active with 1 confirmed during the fall of 44.

tootles

[Big Orange]

Did the RAF have fully operational fighter jets as early as WWII as well?

[Huck]

Dear Huck,
Let's examine what you said and what I reacted to:

"The first jet planes entered service in Nov 1944 with JG7".

and now you suddenly split words over "operational" and a "regular" unit. I think flying missions in a Versuchverband is also "serving", especially since these were operational missions collecting intelligence and not test flights.
bregds
SES

My observation is correct. Nov 1944 is the date when jets entered service. What was before were manufacturer trials, then air force trials. Air force trials, beside usual flight testing does include combat testing. During combat testing, a.k.a. operational testing, real combat is takes place, real kills are scored, real reconnaissance is performed and so on. That does not mean that during these combat trials the aircrafts are operational. They are not. The planes become operational when air force concludes the flight and combat testing, decides the version it wants into production and sends the new plane to actual combat units. Those units do not have test pilots. They do not gather extensive flight data for further modifications. Their only concerns are the daily combat tasks.

I don't make any distinction between "operational" and "regular" unit. The distinction is between testing unit and operational unit. Like I said before air force testing units, beside usual flight tests, do combat tests also. For instance 1./Versuchsverband ObdL, the unit that first flew Ar-234, is one tipical Luftwaffe testing unit. The Ar-234 they flew in June 1944 were not even preproduction models, they were 2 prototypes (I don't remember the V number, I can look for it if you are interested). Obviously, no prototype has ever gained operational status. Prototypes are unfinished products. They don't serve in actual combat units. Those Ar-234 flown in June were still models with skids instead of real landing gears, they were from no point of view ready for service. Erprobungskommando 262 that Erich mentioned is just another such testing unit.

The next step after air force testing is combat testing. Kommando Nowotny was a combat testing unit for Me-262. Einsatzkommando Schenck tested Me-262 in fighter bomber role. Sonderkommando Sommer tested Ar-234 in recce role. Sonderkommando Bonow was supposed to test Ar-234 in nightfighter role. And so on. Those units did take part in actual combat. However, the purpose was not the combat itself but combat testing, that is testing the way the plane behaves in combat, developing tactics suited for the plane and so on. Combat testing can add new requirements for the plane. For instance Me-262 as tested in Oct '44 was a very different plane compared to the one used in Dec '44 (in terms of engine characteristics, empty/loaded weights, etc), despite that only 2 months separates them. It also shows that how late the final configuration of Me-262 was decided.

Only after all these steps were made the final versions of the planes were sent to operational units, like JG7, KG51, KG76 etc. Then the cycle repeats (in ever decreasing circles, the largest is the first one, from prototype to first operational version).

[Vincent S.]

http://users.skynet.be/milvlieg/index.htm


So,Look yourself,
Sorry ,but this page I sin Dutch,but wit a litle effort you can read it
Good for learning dutch

Best Regards

Axisfactbook...

[medieval dudes]

Did the RAF have fully operational fighter jets as early as WWII as well?

This site will answer your question Big Orange and show you the ultimate METEOR.....

http://users.belgacom.net/aircraft1/avi ... .html#2014



Greg

[medieval dudes]

Oh and I found this website that could interest the others debating.....

http://www.aerospaceweb.org/question/hi ... 0144.shtml

Enjoy if it is of any help

Greg

[Erich]

Kommando Nowotny was operational and not just a testing unit, look for yourself into the brief history of the unit, protected by really the only high cover Dora 9 unit in the war, III./JG 54. Because of the success's noted JG 7 was formed and not even in a full fledged 3 gruppen Geschwader, always depleted and always the units pilots and crewmen/mechanics ~ black men arguing amongst themselves something that is still done today; duly notated that the JG 7 members have never had an official treffen. JG 7 even during it's combat performance was always testing tactics against the heavy pulks including P-51 formations and of course the final word was never said with the use of the R4M rocket, yes tested elsewhere but used by the unit and not under complete satisfaction by the pilots

v/r E ♪

[Huck]

Kommando Nowotny was operational and not just a testing unit, look for yourself into the brief history of the unit, protected by really the only high cover Dora 9 unit in the war, III./JG 54. Because of the success's noted JG 7 was formed and not even in a full fledged 3 gruppen Geschwader, always depleted and always the units pilots and crewmen/mechanics ~ black men arguing amongst themselves something that is still done today; duly notated that the JG 7 members have never had an official treffen. JG 7 even during it's combat performance was always testing tactics against the heavy pulks including P-51 formations and of course the final word was never said with the use of the R4M rocket, yes tested elsewhere but used by the unit and not under complete satisfaction by the pilots

v/r E ♪

Hi Erich. I've seen that many authors insist that Kommando Nowotny was an operational unit. The only argument they bring for this is that in early October 1944 they became fully supplied with Me-262A-1 (for group status - 40 aircraft). Unfortunately, this argument is very weak, Kommando Nowotny was not the only unit in this situation. For instance I./KG51 had 60 Me-262A-1 in October. It is true that Kommando Nowotny was one of the most active jet units at that point, they even flown combat missions, but as even the name of the unit says, Kommando Nowotny (short for Sonderkommando Nowotny) was just a testing unit under the command of an experienced pilot. Among their tasks was to fly the plane in combat. They also had to perform flight testing because the plane they had, even if it was called A-1, was still in development. For instance in October 1944 this "A-1" had a MTOW 800kg less that what we know to be an "A-1", and engines produced about 100kgf less and were very inconsistent in max rating (from day to day they reported different measurements for max thrust, of course this is sometimes weather related, but here it is not the case). The regular units, despite that many were already supplied with jets by October 1944, could not fly them into combat at that point, they did only training. After the death of Nowotny it was decided to conclude the testing and start operations with Me-262. They changed the name of Kommando Nowotny to III./JG7 and began combat operations. From this point on, other jet units put on hold until then, began actual combat operations too.