German aircraft in Russia.

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schwalbe
Veteran Member
Posts: 113
(9/16/01 7:01:49 pm)
Reply German aircraft in Russia.
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Could someone tell me what happened to the air planes in Russia? Me-262, Ar-234, ect. All German Jets and pisone planes. Thanks and the history also.

oleg
Visitor
(9/16/01 8:56:00 pm)
Reply re
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The same thing that happened in the west - planes were studied which saved a lot of time in terms of future designs. Many of the Soviet pales were influenced by German designers. Among engineers who went to work for Russians were Hunther Bock, Rudolf Rental (former head of the design team for Me-163 and Me-262) Adolf Bentz, Brunolf Baade,Zigfrid Hunther (creator of He-162). It was Hunther who made the first sketches of MiG-15. By the way pardon my spelling of German names - I am using Russin sources and have no idea how these names spelled in English.
German designs ,contrary to the popular opinion none were copied bolt for bolt by Soviet Union -in fact there was specific order from Politburo not to do it. However it rather obvious what Soviet planes were inspired by German designs: Su-9 was had clearly resembled Me-262A, IL-22 had many common features with Ar-234 and He-343, MiG-9 was influenced by Ta-183.
Even though planes were not copied - engines were: both BMW-003A and JUMO-004B were produced in USSR as RD-10 and RD-20 respectfully although they went through some redesign process in order to improve their characteristics.





-Me 262 -note the Red Star



-this is Su-9.



MiG-9


schwalbe
Veteran Member
Posts: 115
(9/17/01 12:02:13 am)
Reply Re: re
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Thanks, Do you know what types of planes where sent there, and how many of that type. and what happened to them in the end?

oleg
Visitor
(9/17/01 12:48:54 am)
Reply re
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I know that Me-262 was tested extensively

oleg
Visitor
(9/17/01 12:50:57 am)
Reply re
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Somehow my reply was cut. There were multiple Me-262. I also know about one Ar-234 and at least one four me-163. Probably there are more. As for their fate - they were scraped eventually I assume.

schwalbe
Veteran Member
Posts: 116
(9/17/01 1:05:21 am)
Reply Re: re
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So there are no more in Russia? Do you know how many of them where tested? as in Bf-109,Bf-110, Me-262, He-162 ect?

oleg
Visitor
(9/17/01 2:14:47 am)
Reply re
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Significant number of German planes were bought by USSR from Germany right before the war. They included Ju-88, Do-215,Me-109, FW-189, Me-110. In addition to that Soviets bought large number of engines and navigational equipment. All this equipment was subject for throughout testing and evaluation. If anything was left - it must be in museums. Monino is the biggest aviation museum in Russia you might want to contact them. If you are interested in general if there are any German planes in Russia –sure there is. In the Russian North –notably in the forests around Murmansk there is a lot of downed planes –both Soviet and Germans -when I was a lot younger we used them as points of references… sometimes pilots were still sitting there…

Also Ta-152 was in service with VVS for a while after the war ended – namely with Baltic fleet aviation.


oleg
Visitor
(9/17/01 2:19:18 am)
Reply re
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on the other note Germans tested Sovite planes:)



oleg
Visitor
(9/17/01 2:25:49 am)
Reply re
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Apparently Soviets also bought several He-100

Madcap7
Veteran Member
Posts: 184
(9/17/01 2:05:52 pm)
Reply German aircraft in Russia.
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The Junkers Ju 287, the jet bomber with forward swept wings was taken by the Soviets. It was flown in the USSR and an improved version was built.

Many Technitions and Engineers were brought back as 'guests' Soviet Union and were forced to work for the Soviet masters.

Landser
Visitor
(9/17/01 3:32:08 pm)
Reply Guest's
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"guest's' is a nice PC word for slaveworkers- or am I labeled now a revisionist or NAZI for bringing it up?

Just bringing it up no pun intented.

oleg
Visitor
(9/17/01 5:26:41 pm)
Reply re
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considering the fact that they were accommodated better than than they Soviet counterparts and were also far better paid -yes Slave workers is inappropriate term. As for Ju-287 could you elaborate what Soviet plane was build from that one. There is a specific Soviet document which forbade copying of German planes.

Ferdinand Porsche
Member
Posts: 14
(9/17/01 5:56:00 pm)
Reply
The Me 262...
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was used by Czekoslavakia for some time as military aircraft (not just testing), so maybe the same thing happened to many of the other German aircrafts?
BTW, have you seen the resemblence between the F-86, the Mig 15 and the Me P. 1101? Talk about spying on each other...


Ferdinand Porsche
Visit the Panzer Page at http://www.chr.ankerstjerne.com

Ovidius
Veteran Member
Posts: 307
(9/17/01 5:57:00 pm)
Reply
Re: re
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Of course, Slave is an inappropriate term for the German POWs - it would fit better to the millions of Gulag prisoners, who of course had no 'Schindler's List' movie made about them.

~ Cheers,

Ovidius

oleg
Visitor
(9/17/01 6:53:44 pm)
Reply re
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I don't exactly see what GULAG inmates have to do with the subject in question?

Ovidius
Veteran Member
Posts: 310
(9/17/01 7:45:26 pm)
Reply
Off Topic
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Nothing, but I like to pull the Russians from the sleeve when they say "Your guys were worse!"

oleg
Visitor
(9/17/01 8:15:44 pm)
Reply re
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You -who?

schwalbe
Veteran Member
Posts: 117
(9/17/01 11:16:11 pm)
Reply Thank you!
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This is alot of information. Could you guys get some pictures of German planes in Russia? or Russion planes in Germany? I get so much information from you guys, its almost better than books. But i never see any pictures.
Tony

oleg
Visitor
(9/17/01 11:44:35 pm)
Reply re
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schwalbe
Veteran Member
Posts: 118
(9/18/01 12:04:20 am)
Reply Re: re
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i dont see anything

oleg
Visitor
(9/18/01 6:29:51 am)
Reply re
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You also might be interested in this book: Hans-Werner Lerche. Luftwaffe Test Pilot: Flying captured Allied Aircraft of World War 2. Jane's Publishing Company, 1980)

[Cantankerous]

With respect to flight tests of Ju 287-type aircraft in the USSR, Horst Lommel's 2004 book "Junkers Ju 287: The World's First Swept-Wing Jet Aircraft" and Yefim Gordon's book "Early Soviet Jet Bombers" summarize the following:

1. When the Soviets overran Dessau not too long after the Americans overran the Brandis airfield in April 1945, they found the third Ju 287 prototype under construction and because most Ju 287 project documentation was destroyed by Allied bombing, the captured Junkers design team, led by Brunolf Baade, had to devise a new version of the Ju 287, the EF 131, which was similar to the planned production Ju 287 but had 6 Jumo 004s (built in USSR after war as RD-10) and a slightly longer fuselage. The Soviets were eager to try out FSW technology.
2. Remnants of the six-engine Junkers Ju 287 V2 (which had been blown up at Brandis by the Germans along with the first Ju 287 prototype to avoid capture by Allied forces), especially the wing sections were used in construction of the EF 131, which had the same number of engines as Ju 287 V2, Ju 287 V3, and Ju 287A-1 (which explains why the EF 131 was confused with either Ju 287 V2 or V3 in some older aviation literature, even though the EF 131 had defensive armament and the second and third Ju 287 prototypes didn't). Although the EF 131 was finished in 1946, the victorious Allies forbade German aircraft development after WW2, so the EF 131 itself was transported to the Soviet Union by rail to a test center near Moscow.
3. The EF 131 first flew on May 23, 1947 piloted by Paul Julge and flew 15 flight tests for a total of just 11 flight hours before the EF 131 program ended in June 1948.
4. The captured Junkers design team built in the USSR a twin-engine FSW prototype bomber, the EF 140, which used two powerful Mikulin turbojet engines and first flew on September 30, 1948. However, the EF 140 was not ordered into production after TsAGI concluded that the use of forward swept wings in aircraft construction was unsatisfactory.

That said, the EF 131 and EF 140 were reincarnations of the Ju 287 that ended up being tested in the USSR, but by the late 1940s FSW tech reached a dead end the last descendants of the Ju 287 had been largely overtaken by the Il-22, Il-28 Beagle, Tu-14 Bosun, and Tu-73/Tu-78, which used Soviet derivatives of British jet engine technology and the first jet engines conceived by Arkhip Lyulka, who is generically considered the progenitor of the dawn of the jet age in the USSR/Russia.

[Cantankerous]

I also have to mention that the Junkers EF 126 pulsejet fighter and DFS 346 rocket-powered spyplane were also tested in the USSR after the Nazi surrender. Test flights of the DFS 346 were conducted using B-25s given to the USSR under Lend Lease and the Tu-4 (Soviet copy of the B-29). Info regarding test flights of the DFS 346 and EF 126 is available at these links:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DFS_346
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Junkers_EF_126