Experimental German Aircraft

[looma]

That Libellula seems a much-smaller kin of the huge Vickers Type C (december 1942 drawing) depicted in the cover below.
64m span, 29m length, 80-ton (including 25t of bombs) T/O weight, 6x turbocharged Centaurus, 615Kmh

Davide

nice... say this is kinda off topic but where can i find info on british planes like that?

that was another luftwaffe problem... they are sometimes too unrealistic... some great pioneers but great designs come late

[Topspeed]

There are heaps of them....really makes one think....how many of them they produced per day !?
They just drew outlines and an engine placement...no more than day or two has been put effort to several of them.

[Davide Pastore]

nice... say this is kinda off topic but where can i find info on british planes like that?

In the book illustrated:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/185780 ... s&v=glance
Amazon says, "only one left in stock".

There are also (by the same author) companions book about Soviet secret projects, some of them interesting too.

Davide

[Gearhead1432]

See the warbird below: it's an artist's impression of a project dated 6 october 1942 (Boulton-Paul P.100) and I bet it's way ahead of anything German-designed at the same date.

Davide

I'll have to disagree with you. IIRC in 1942 the me262 flew under jet power for the first time. Also the flying wing technology apears to have been more advanced in the 1930s and 40s than any other nation. A good example is the go229 (Horton). At that time German aeronotical technology was just ahead of it's day.

-Rob

[Davide Pastore]

IIRC in 1942 the me262 flew under jet power for the first time.

Personally I will not call the 262 as "advanced". It has a very conventional airframe (down to the cockpit in the wrong place, as if the plane has a nose engine), a conventional wing, plus two jet engines. Proof enough is the fact that no-one bothered to copy it, while the Meteor had a long and distinguished career afterwar. However, in any book (expecially those written by non-expert) the 262 is depicted as a marvel, so I reckon I must be wrong.

Davide

[Gearhead1432]

It has a very conventional airframe (down to the cockpit in the wrong place, as if the plane has a nose engine), a conventional wing, plus two jet engines. Proof enough is the fact that no-one bothered to copy it, while the Meteor had a long and distinguished career afterwar.

The cockpit can't be closer to the front, so it's not in the wong place. Remember there is a fuel tank, 4x30mm cannons plus ammo in front of the cockpit. That is a lot of weight! It's all about balance. One major problem with other jets and perhaps even the meteor at the time was the air frame balance with fuel distibution. One of the reasons the wings are swept on the me262 was to shift weight aft.

Yes, the 262 was copied. by the Russians and perhaps the Ctechs (not too sure about the later). However that is beside the point. Germany lost the war, so the me262 never had the chance to have a "long and distinguished career." Plus Germany made better and faster jets later in the war.

Here's the last surviving go229.

[looma]

omg what have the americans done to it?

i thought it would look at least a bit better

[Davide Pastore]

The cockpit can't be closer to the front, so it's not in the wong place. Remember there is a fuel tank, 4x30mm cannons plus ammo in front of the cockpit. That is a lot of weight! It's all about balance

The fuel tank should not be in front of the cockpit, but near the centre of gravity (itself - usually - midway between the wings. There is no necessity to place the MK 108 in the tip of the nose, since they could have been placed under the belly (with their magazine near the centre of gravity) so as not to disturb the balance of the plane after consuming fuel and ammo. (speaking about how and why to balance a plane, I had to study the topic at school). The extreme nose is the right place to have a radar radome (if extant) and, as second best, the cockpit.

However all this discussion has little scope because, as I pointed out, any single book touching the topic repeats the old mantra about how a fantastic plane 262 was. If something is written in all the books it must be true - isn't it?

Davide

[Oberst_Emann]

IIRC in 1942 the me262 flew under jet power for the first time.

Personally I will not call the 262 as "advanced". It has a very conventional airframe (down to the cockpit in the wrong place, as if the plane has a nose engine), a conventional wing, plus two jet engines. Proof enough is the fact that no-one bothered to copy it, while the Meteor had a long and distinguished career afterwar. However, in any book (expecially those written by non-expert) the 262 is depicted as a marvel, so I reckon I must be wrong.

Davide

So, just about how many straight-winged, centrifugal-engined jet fighters do you see today?

Could you also kindly explain to me how the 262's wings were "conventional"?

[Davide Pastore]

Could you also kindly explain to me how the 262's wings were "conventional"?

1) could you kindly explain to me how they were NOT conventional?

2) the 262 had serious compressibility problems at high Mach number, due to its thick-profile conventional wing. Further upgraded versions (HG etc.), which AFAIK never flew, had a new, thin-profile, advanced laminar-flow wing. Aircraft aficionados will probably recall the similar evolution from the thick-profile conventional wing of the Typhoon to the thin-profile advanced wing of the Tempest. This was a big technical step, although it is not readily apparent.

3) only these HG evolutions would have a truly swept-back wing. Although some people call the 262 a swept-back wing plane, they have probably never realized how the 262 wing shape looks like the C-47 wing shape. Surely they will not call the Dakota a swept-wing plane, will they?

4) additionally, HGs will at last have its engines placed in a clever position, rationally designed to minimize drag.

Do you want to see an advanced, rationally-designed, German jet planes? Look at Ta 183 (which heavily influenced MiG-15).
http://www.luft46.com/fw/ta183-i.html

Davide

[Y Ddraig Goch]

Please can you check this site out!:- http://www.answers.com/topic/list-of-mi ... nufacturer

It lists German flying saucers with real designs and actual aircraft giving the impression that they existed. This site is an internet encyclopaedia and what information included would be assumed to be fact by most readers. Am I being overly sensitive or am i right in thinking that the information is wrong?

Answers on a Postcard

[Y Ddraig Goch]

A quote from:- http://www.stormbirds.net/history1.htm

"A combination of excellent design and downright luck resulted in a very harmonious design while significantly stretching the known aeronautical boundaries. An example of this is the Me 262's wing. The characteristic swept design was the result of a need to place the center of gravity aft to compensate for heavier then expected engines. It was only later that the benefits of swept wings were realized."

Was the Me 262 a first or a second generation fighter?

[Davide Pastore]

while significantly stretching the known aeronautical boundaries

Well, I suppose beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Like a "swept" wing.

"Then an Me 262 returned to Lechfeld after a hair-raising narrow escape. The German pilot had intercepted a Spitfire and followed it into a high speed dive from 28,000 feet. He was gaining on his quarry, but as speed built up the jet fighter's controls stiffened. It became necessary to haul on the stick with both hands to prevent the dive steepening and, trapped in a headlong dive, the jet sped past the Spitfire. Nothing the German pilot did with the controls altered its flight path and even when he pulled both throttles to the idling position the jet fighter continued to build up speed in the dive. Finally, with the ground coming up at disconcertingly high rate, the pilot decided to bail out. He jettisoned his canopy and the sudden turbulence caused a major trim-change. Without further ado the aircraft pulled out of the dive, narrowly missing a ridge of high ground. Minutes later the frightened and subdued pilot landed at Lechfeld. The skinning on the Me 262's wing was rippled in several places."

(Alfred Price, The Jet Fighter Menace, in Kenneth Macksey (ed.), The Hitler's Options)

I wonder how many book writers (and website creators) had ever heard the word "compressibility", and had at least a faint idea of its meaning.
BTW this was what I talked about when claiming that the 262 had a conventional wing.

Davide

[Y Ddraig Goch]

Have you seen the stages of modification planned to upgrade the 262? The final stage HG III was very advanced. (Luftwaffe Secret Projects)

The 262 wing was only advanced in the way that it was swept, but even then it was not a truly swept back wing. Apparently the wing for the F-86 Sabre was taken from German aerodynamic designs projected for the Me 262 future upgrades. Making what would have been a mediocre staight winged jet fighter into a superb swept wing jet fighter.

[Davide Pastore]

Have you seen the stages of modification planned to upgrade the 262? The final stage HG III was very advanced.

Actually I wrote about them four or five posts above.

Davide