cancelled KC holders / state of the science / KC lists

Discussions on the personalities of the Wehrmacht and of the organizations not covered in the other sections. Hosted by Dieter Zinke, askropp and Frech.
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Bernd R
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cancelled KC holders / state of the science / KC lists

Post by Bernd R » 19 Jan 2007 18:48

Hello ! all users and guests,

as many of you know, in 2005 “Die Ritterkreuzträger – Die Inhaber des Ritterkreuzes des Eisernen Kreuzes 1939 – 1945“ by Veit Scherzer was published.

The standard works on KC holders so far by the authors Gerhard von Seemen, Ernst-Günther Krätschmer and Walther-Peer Fellgiebel with that new work have been corrected concerning around 240 recipients in general and furtheron concerning some data.

According to author Veit Scherzer these group of estimated recipients are no official KC holders (or holders of higher grades of the Knight’s Cross) for different reasons.

For some there is no proof in the Bundesarchiv, many have been awarded illegally in light of his newest research, for others no confirmation of an award could be found.

The Ordensgemeinschaft der Ritterkreuzträger e.V. (OdR) is not agreeing to the results of the book, interested public / libraries / institutions in Germany and worldwide did take it very positive, if I got it correctly from an overview.

It’s his answer in this moment to the question : who is a KC holder and who is not.

If we are interested in this question, how do we accept/deal with this new research ?
Maybe you think, it is ineffective to have a discussion on this and everyone can have his own opinion and there is no need to look for a kind of “clearing” ; it could be impossible too, to find the “only result” ; and of course it is a fact, that in world of history science several opinions can exist side by side.
Nevertheless, what I would like to ask you for :
could we as a big community here on AHF share our thoughts on this topic in an objective manner, calmly and without excitement ?


Concrete reasons, which may require to handle “cancelled KC holders” :
- works of authors on KC holders
- biographies of KC holders as an aspect within other topics
- perplexity of living KC holders :
via a friend got the info that an autograph collector, who wrote to a recipient from this man got the answer, that he won’t sign photographs furtheron, because he is “cancelled” in the Scherzer book
(resp. will not sign until this issue is cleared) !!

Another question is how to compile (“count”) lists of KC holders per unit like in the “awardsholders/unit” thread.

There is the possibility of eventually integrating the lists into the AHFactbook, when reviewed.
Any thoughts on the lists are much appreciated also.

I don’t want to argue in this opening post, just give the description and the request.

Thanks for your interest and your comments
luchs

BTW: An interesting link
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benutzer:S ... #Schwerter:

Jan-Hendrik
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Post by Jan-Hendrik » 19 Jan 2007 19:08

Well , the success of Mr.Scherzer shows that he is right in the eyes of those ones passionated in real historical research . He cleared up much "Schmu" done by "legalizing" ( from the point of the chairmen of OdR ) people as RKT who were much more than far beyond this . And that was more than neccessary , especially as he never left the "ground" of legality of this decoration ( approval to the HPA , documents that proove the decoration etc. ) . That within the OdR the position regarding Scherzer's work is not so clear as the chairman tries to show you might read here :

http://tinyurl.com/225xsb

Sure , some cases are still not clear at last or , as we might say a bit pity , for example Kleinheisterkamps EL ( authority to decorate him or not ? ) or von Diest-Körber ( states that he was cited to the staff of PzKps FHH on 1st May , was surpringly decorated with RK , but he himself admits in his diary that the Kps and the Army have no Funkkontakt with the OKH anymore ) .

In my opinion : keep on rocking , dear Mr.Scherzer !

Jan-Hendrik

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K.Kocjancic
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Post by K.Kocjancic » 22 Jan 2007 12:18

Does anyone has a list of these ~240 men?

Regards,
Klemen

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Bernd R
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Post by Bernd R » 22 Jan 2007 18:39

if we have the topic, why not have the recipients in question listed here :

1) Albrecht, Willy 09.05.1945 Hptm d.R. Kdr I./Jäg.Rgt 734
2) Amsberg von, Joachim 09.05.1945 Oberst i.G. Kdr Gren.Rgt 502
3) Ax, Adolf 09.05.1945 SS-Oberführer Fhr 15. Waffen-Gren.Div der SS (lett. Nr. 1)
4) Bachor, Willy 11.05.1945 Oberwachtmeister Zugführer i. d. 12./Pz.Rgt 24
5) Baier, Joseph 09.05.1945 Oberstleutnant Kdr Gren.Rgt 36
6) Baldes, Josef 08.05.1945 Fhj-Ofw Flugzeugführer i. d. 1.(F)/Aufkl.Grp 124
7) Barge, Johannes 10.05.1945 Oberst Kdr Festungs-Gren.Rgt „Kreta“
8) Bastian, Heinrich 06.05.1945 SS-Obersturmführer Fhr II./SS-PGR 3 „Deutschland“
9) Bauer, Ludwig 29.04.1945 Leutnant Führer 1./Pz.Rgt 33
10) Baurmann, Heinz 04.05.1945 Hauptmann Kdr Heeres-Stu.Art.Brig 300 (Feld)
11) Bayer, Franz 09.05.1945 Hauptmann Chef i. d. III./Pz.Rgt „GD“
12) Behre, Friedrich 09.05.1945 Leutnant KpFhr im I./Fsch-Pz.Gren.Rgt 1 „HG“
13) Benthack, Hans-Georg 10.05.1945 Generalmajor Kdr Festungs-Division „Kreta“
14) Berzen, August 09.05.1945 Uffz i. d. Festung-Pak-Kp 13/X [bei 180.ID]
15) Biehler, Ernst 09.05.1945 Generalmajor Kdt Festung Frankfurt/Oder
16) Bittrich, Wilhelm SW 06.05.1945 SS-Obergruppenführer K.G. II. SS-Pz.Korps
17) Blanc von, Adalbert EL 10.05.1945 Fregattenkapitän Fhr der 9. Sicherungs-Div
18) Blond, Friedrich 28.04.1945 SS-Ustuf Fhr 12./SS-Pz.Gren.A.u.E.Btl 1 „LSSAH“
19) Bork, Max 11.05.1945 Generalleutnant Kdr 47. Volks-Gren-Div
20) Botsch, Walter 09.05.1945 Generalleutnant K.G. LIII. Armee.Korps
21) Brandner, Josef EL 26.04.1945 Major Kdr Stug.Brig 912
22) Bremermann, Oskar 09.05.1945 Feldwebel Zugführer i. d. 6./Gren.Rgt 209
23) Bremm, Josef SW 09.05.1945 Oberstleutnant Kdr Gren.Rgt 990
24) Bretz, Hans 06.05.1945 OFähnr Zugfhr i. d. Pz.Vernichtungs-Brig „Oberschlesien“
25) Bröckerhoff, Wilhelm 08.05.1945 Major Fhr Pz.Art.Rgt „Brandenburg“
26) Burgemeister, Alfred 02.05.1945 Oberst Kdr Gren.Rgt 524
27) Bühler, Karl-Heinz SS-Obersturmbannfhr Kdr SS-Pz.Gren.Rgt 9 „Germania“
28) Büttner, Manfred 29.04.1945 Fhj-Ofw Führer 2./Fsch.Jäg.Rgt 26
29) Decker, Karl SW 26.04.1945 General der Panzertruppe K.G. XXXIX. Pz.Korps
30) Dennhardt, Oskar-Hubert EL 09.05.1945 Major Führer Gren.Rgt 1143
31) Deutsch, Ferdinand 06.05.1945 Olt d.R. Führer einer Kampfgruppe
32) Doemming von, Diethelm 30.04.1945 Major Kdr II./Pz.Gren.Rgt 9
33) Dombacher, Kurt 08.04.1945 Leutnant Flugzeugführer i. d. 1./J.G. 51 „Mölders“
34) Draxenberger, Sepp 17.04.1945 SS-Hauptscharfhr Pi.Zugfhr i.d. StabsKp/SS-PR 5
35) Dreike, Franz-Joseph 06.05.1945 SS-Hauptsturmführer Kdr SS-Flak-Abt 2
36) Drexler, Oskar 06.05.1945 SS-Obersturmbannführer Kdr SS-Pz.Art.Rgt 12
37) Egger, Paul 28.04.1945 SS-Obersturmführer Zugfhr i. d. 1./s.SS-Pz.Abt 502
38) Einem von, Hans-Egon 11.05.1945 Oberst Kdr Pz.Gren.Rgt 21
39) Eisgruber, Karl 01.06.1945 Oberstleutnant Kdr Geb.Jäg.Rgt 98
40) Fabich, Maximilian 09.05.1945 Oberstleutnant Kdr Pz.Korps-Füs.Rgt „GD“
41) Feller, Wolfgang 17.06.1945 Olt z.S. d.R. Gruppenfhr i. d. 36. Minensuch-Flotille
42) Fernau, Hans-Georg 04.05.1945 Hauptmann Kdr I./Gren.Rgt (mot) „FHH“
43) Fey, Wilhelm (Will) 29.04.1945 SS-Stand-Objk. Fhr e Pz.Jgd.Kdo / Kgr Mohnke
44) Fiebig, Heinz 08.05.1945 Generalmajor Kdr 84. Inf.Div
45) Fischer, Alfred 11.05.1945 SS-Sturmbannführer Kdr II./SS-Pz.Art.Rgt 11
46) Fleischer, Rudolf 09.05.1945 Major Kdr Heeres-Flak.Art.Abt 314
47) Flocke, Paul 30.04.1945 Leutnant Führer 5./Gren.Rgt 915
48) Florschütz, Wilhelm 09.05.1945 Hauptmann Kdr I./Volks-Pi.Brig (mot) 47
49) Fröhlich, Kurt 06.05.1945 SS-Hauptsturmführer Führer II./SS-Pz.Rgt 9
50) Fromm, Friedrich 06.07.1940 Gen d Art Chef HRüst und BdE [20. Juli 1944]
51) Gaigals, Roberts 05.05.1945 Waffen-Ostuf Fhr 6./W-GR d SS 42
52) Gebhard, ? 06.05.1945 SS-Oberscharfhr Zugführer i. d. 2./SS-Pz.Pi.Btl 2
53) Gehl, Paul 09.05.1945 Oberleutnant d.R. Führer I./Gren.Rgt 453
54) Gerlach, Karl 03.05.1945 Oberleutnant Chef 4./Pz.Rgt 35
55) Gersteuer, Günter 28.04.1945 Major Kdr Fsch-Stug.Brig 12
56) Göller, Siegwart 09.05.1945 Hauptmann d.R. Kdr II./Geb.Jäg.Rgt 98
57) Golz, Herbert 03.05.1945 SS-Staf. u O d Schupo Chef GenSt X. SS-AK u Fhr e Kgr
58) Graßmel, Franz EL 08.05.1945 Oberstleutnant Kdr Fsch.Jäg.Rgt 20
59) Gräser, Fritz-Hubert SW 08.05.1945 Gen d PzTruppe OB 4. Panzer.Armee
60) Gropp, Heinz 06.05.1945 SS-Obersturmführer d.R. Fhr 2./SS-Flak-Abt 9
61) Grosan, Erhard 28.04.1945 Oberst Kdr Kgr Grosan / Armeegruppe Blumentritt
62) Groth, Heinz 09.05.1945 Major d.R. IIa 1.Volks-Geb.Div u Fhr Geb.Jäg.Rgt 98
63) Hack, Franz EL 18.04.1945 SS-Obersturmbannfhr Kdr SS-PGR 10 „Westland“
64) Hampel, Desiderius 03.05.1945 SS-Brig.Fhr Kdr Kgr 13. Waffen-GD „Handschar“
65) Hanke, Hans 03.05.1945 SS-Obersturmbannfhr Kdr Waffen-GJR der SS 28
66) Hartrampf, Kurt 28.04.1945 SS-Sturmbannführer Kdr s.SS-Pz.Abt 502
67) Harttrumpf, Paul 08.05.1945 Leutnant Führer 1./Gren.Rgt 12
68) Harzenetter, Johann 09.05.1945 Hauptmann Kdr II./Gren.Rgt 331
69) Hasenpusch, Rudolf 27.04.1945 Leutnant Führer Brücken-Kommando 16
70) Haukelt, Edgar 28.04.1945 SS-Obersturmführer Chef 1./SS-Jagd-Pz.Abt 561
71) Hauser, Hans 06.05.1945 SS-Stubaf. u Maj d Schupo Kdr I./SS-PGR 4 „Der Führer“
72) Havik, Hans 09.05.1945 SS-Untersturmführer Zugfhr i. d. 1./SS-Pol-Pz.Abt 4
73) Heiland, Hans 09.05.1945 Leutnant Führer 5./Pz.Gren.Rgt 126
74) Heistermann von Ziehlberg, Gustav 27.07.1944 Genlt Kdr 28. Jäg.Div [20. Juli 1944]
75) Hengstler, Richard 28.04.1945 Hauptmann Chef 1./Fsch-Stug.Brig 12
76) Herfurth, Otto 14.09.1942 Oberst Kdr Inf.Rgt 117 [20. Juli 1944]
77) Hesse, Rudolf 09.05.1945 Leutnant Führer 2./Gren.Rgt 165
78) Heuer, Heinz 22.04.1945 Oberfeldwebel (Feldgendarm) i. d. Kgr z.b.V. Berlin 5
79) Hitzfeld, Otto SW 09.05.1945 Gen d Inf K.G. LXVII Armee.Korps
80) Hobe von, Cord 09.05.1945 Otl. Kdr einer Kgr des XIII. SS-Armee.Korps
81) Hoepner, Erich 27.10.1939 Gen d Kav K.G. XVI. AK [1942 and 20. Juli 1944]
82) Hoff, Carl 09.05.1945 Kapitänleutnant Chef 1. Räumbott-Flotille
83) Hoffmann, Ludwig 11.05.1945 SS-Hstuf. Fhr III./SS-Pz.Gren.Rgt 23 „Norge“
84) Hofmann, Paul 09.05.1945 Leutnant Führer 6./Gren.Rgt 352
85) Hohenhausen und Hochhaus Frhr von, Oskar 11.05.1945 Otl Kdr Pz.Gren.Rgt 9
86) Hohmeier, Heinrich 09.05.1945 Feldwebel Zugführer i. d. StabsKp/Gren.Rgt 994
87) Hollermeier, Josef 09.05.1945 Major d.R. Führer Gren.Rgt 1213
88) Hollmann, Ernst 09.05.1945 Hauptmann d.R. Kdr II./Gren.Rgt 1221
89) Hoppe, Hans 08.05.1945 Major Kdr II./Flak-Rgt (mot) 46
90) Hölter, Hermann 03.05.1945 Generalleutnant Chef des Gen.Stabs 20. Geb.Armee
91) Hönniger, Theodor 09.05.1945 Oberfeldwebel Zugführer i. d. 3./Pz.Rgt 25
92) Hößlin von, Roland 23.07.1942 Hauptmann Fhr Pz.AA 33 [20. Juli 1944]
93) Hüttebräucker, Hermann 06.05.1945 Hptm Lehrer a.d. PzTr.Schule Milowitz
94) Jaquet, Fritz 09.05.1945 Leutnant Adjutant I./Gren.Rgt 62
95) Jäckel, Karl 09.05.1945 Obersteuermann Steuermann U-907
96) Jäger, Fritz 26.05.1940 Major Kdr II./Inf.Rgt 8 [20. Juli 1944]
97) Jodl, Alfred EL 10.05.1945 GenO Chef Wehrmachts-GenStab im OKW
98) Jungwirt, Hans 09.05.1945 Major Kdr Fsch-Aufkl.Abt 12
99) Jürgens, Heinz 09.05.1945 SS-Hauptsturmführer Kdr SS-Pz.Aufkl.Abt 4
100) Kaminski, Werner 06.05.1945 Otl. i.G. Ia Festungs-Div „Kreta“
101) Kausch, Paul-Albert EL 23.04.1945 SS-Ostubf. Kdr SS-PR 11 „Hermann von Salza“
102) Kinz, Helmut 03.05.1945 SS-Hstuf u Hptm d Schupo Kdr SS-Aufkl.Abt 13
103) Kleinheisterkamp, Matthias EL 09.05.1945 SS-Ogruf. K.G. XI. SS-Korps
104) Klemt, Heinrich 02.05.1945 Hauptmann Fhr Pz.Pi.Btl 124 / Führer-Gren.Div
105) Kliemann, Nikodemus 09.05.1945 Oberst d.R. Kdr Gren.Rgt 410
106) Knebel-Doeberitz von, Rudolf 11.05.1945 Major i.G. Ia 24. Pz.Div
107) Koch, Alfred 06.05.1945 SS-Obersturmfhr Kp-Fhr im II./SS-Pz.Gren.Rgt 3
108) Koehler, Walter 11.05.1945 Oberfeldwebel Zugfhr i. d. 3./s.Heeres-Pz.Jäg.Abt 525
109) Koj, Ewald 09.05.1945 Hauptmann Chef 3.(Geb)/Art.Rgt 8
110) Kordemann, Martin 11.05.1945 Oberfeldwebel Zugführer i. d. 6./Gren.Rgt 577
111) Körner, Walter 29.04.1945 SS-Hauptsturmfhr Adjutant SS-Pz.Gren.Rgt 23 „Norge“
112) Kreutz, Karl EL 06.05.1945 SS-Staf. Kdr SS-Pz.AR 2 zugl. Fhr 2. SS-Pz.Div
113) Kuchar, Jakob 11.05.1945 Gefreiter Schütze 1 i. d. 8./Jäg.Rgt 228
114) Kunkel, Kurt-Ernst 30.04.1945 Leutnant Chef 2./Fsch.Jäg.Rgt 4
115) Laebe, Heinz-Oskar EL 29.04.1945 Oberst Kdr Gren.Rgt 44
116) Landau, Christian-Johannes 09.05.1945 Generalmajor Kdr 176. Inf.Div
117) Lange, Günther 06.05.1945 SS-Sturmmann Grpfhr i. d. 16./SS-PGR 4 „Der Führer“
118) Laupenmühlen, Oskar 09.05.1945 Oberfeldwebel Führer 7./Gren.Rgt 399
119) Lehmann, Rudolf EL 06.05.1945 SS-Staf. Führer 2. SS-Pz.Div „Das Reich“
120) Lennartz, Hans 09.05.1945 Hauptmann Fhr Alarm-Btl Kolberg [in Köslin]
121) Leroy, Jaques 20.04.1945 SS-Untersturmführer Fhr 1./SS-Freiw-Gren.Rgt 69
122) Lichte, Karl-Heinz 06.05.1945 SS-Hauptsturmführer Chef 5./SS-Pz.Rgt 5
123) Liecke, Karl 03.05.1945 SS-Ostubaf. u Otl der Schupo Kdr Waffen-GJR der SS 27
124) Lier, Friedrich EL 08.05.1945 Oberstleutnant Kdr einer Kgr der 490. Inf.Div
125) Limburg-Hetlingen von, Enno-Erich 03.05.1945 Oberst Kdr Gren.Rgt 731
126) Lindemann, Fritz 04.09.1941 Oberst z.V. Arko 138 [20. Juli 1944]
127) Lindenau, Daniel 10.02.1945 Otl. i.G. Chef des Stabes IX. SS-Geb.Korps
128) Lindenblatt, Herbert 03.05.1945 Oberstleutnant Kdr Jäg.Rgt 750
129) Lippelt, Rudolf 09.05.1945 Major Kdr II./Art.Rgt 371
130) Lobmeyer, Jakob 28.04.1945 SS-Hstuf. Kdr SS-Jagd-Pz.Abt 561 z.b.V.
131) Lohmann, Hanns-Heinrich 09.05.1945 EL SS-Ostbaf Fhr SS-Frw-PGR 49
132) Lorfing, Artur 09.05.1945 Obergefreiter i. d. 1./Gren.Rgt 956
133) Lotze, Heinz 09.05.1945 Hauptmann d.R. Fhr Alarm-Btl / Kgr Grosan
134) Lüttwitz Frhr von, Heinrich SW 09.05.1945 Gen d PzTr K.G. XXXXVII. Pz.Korps
135) Macher, Robert 14.05.1945 Generalmajor Chef des Stabes / AOK Ostpreußen
136) Matheja, Siegmund 06.05.1945 Uffz i. d. Pz.Haub.Abt / Führer-Gren.Div
137) Mattusch, Walter 06.05.1945 SS-Hstuf Kdr II./SS-Pz.Gren.Rgt 3 „Deutschland“
138) Meier, Hans EL 09.05.1945 Hauptmann Kdr I./Pz.Gren.Rgt 74
139) Meindl, Eugen SW 08.05.1945 Gen d FschTr K.G. II. Fsch.Korps
140) Merks, Hans-Joachim 28.05.1945 Kapitänleutnant Chef 2. Räumboot-Flotille
141) Meyer, Friedrich-August 09.05.1945 Oberst Kdr Fsch.Pz.Ers. u Ausb.Brig „HG“
142) Montag, Alfred EL 09.05.1945 Hauptmann d.R. Fhr Stug.Brig 341
143) Morche, Max 09.05.1945 Gefreiter i. d. 14./Gren.Rgt 101
144) Müller-Rochholz, Friedrich 08.05.1945 Hauptmann Kdr Pz.Pi.Btl „Brandenburg“
145) Niehoff, Hermann SW 26.04.1945 Gen d Inf Kdr Fesuntg Breslau
146) Nohr, Karl 09.05.1945 Unteroffizier Gruppenfhr i. d. StabsKp/Gren.Rgt 453
147) Nuhn, Heinrich 09.05.1945 Hauptmann Kdr Pz.Pi.Btl 124 [Führer-Gren-Div]
148) Olbricht, Friedrich 27.10.1939 Generalleutnant Kdr 24. Inf.Div [20. Juli 1944]
149) Ostendorff, Werner EL 06.05.1945 SS-Gruf. Kdr 2. SS-Pz.Div „Das Reich“
150) Ott, Heinz 11.05.1945 Oberwachtmeister Zugführer i. d. 12./Pz.Rgt 24
151) Pade, Gerhard 30.04.1945 Major Kdr I./Fsch.Jäg.Rgt 4
152) Peschel, Georg 11.05.1945 Oberfeldwebel Zugführer i. d. 10./Jäg.Rgt 49
153) Pitsch, Walter 06.05.1945 SS-Hauptscharführer Bttr-Fhr 4./SS-Flak.Art.Abt 1
154) Platz, Hubert 11.05.1945 Major Kdr Pz.Art.Rgt 89
155) Plocher, Hermann EL 08.05.1945 Generalleutnant Kdr 6. Fsch.Jäg.Div
156) Prien, Peter 09.05.1945 Oberleutnant d.R. Fhr StabsKp/Pz.Rgt 3
157) Radochla, Helmut 09.05.1945 Leutnant Zugfhr i. d. 2./Fest.Inf.Btl XXIII./999
158) Radowitz von, Joseph EL 09.05.1945 Generalleutnant Kdr 23. Pz.Div
159) Radziej, Georg 09.05.1945 Generalleutnant Kdr 169. Inf.Div
160) Rebane, Alfons EL 09.05.1945 W-Standartenfhr Kdr Waffen-Gren.Rgt der SS 46
161) Reber, Gustav-Peter 28.04.1945 SS-Ostuf Kdt HQu XI.SS-Pz.K u Fhr e Pz.Jgd.Kdo
162) Reinholds, Voldemars 11.05.1945 W-Sturmbannführer Kdr W-Gren.Rgt der SS 43
163) Rettberg, Rudolf 06.05.1945 SS-Sturmbannführer Kdr II./SS-Pz.Gren.Rgt 9
164) Richter, Friedrich 11.05.1945 SS-Sturmbannführer Kdr III./SS-Pz.Gren.Rgt 21
165) Riedel, Gerd 08.05.1945 Oberst i.G. Führer Fsch.Jäg.Rgt 7
166) Rieflin, Fritz 06.05.1945 SS-Obersturmführer Chef 2./SS-Pz.Pi.Btl 2
167) Rodemich, Heinrich 11.05.1945 Feldwebel Zugführer i. d. 7./Gren.Rgt 988
168) Roestel, Rudolf 03.05.1945 SS-Ostubaf d.R. Kdr SS-Pz.Häg.Abt 10 u Fhr DivGr 10
169) Roge, Alfred 09.05.1945 SS-Ostuf Fhr 1./SS-Rgt Besslein i. d. Festung Breslau
170) Sailer, Johann 06.05.1945 SS-Obersturmführer Fhr 3./SS-Pz.Jäg.Abt 9
171) Sauter, Jordan 07.05.1945 Hauptmann d.R. Kdr II./Rgt 1 „Theodor Körner“
172) Schaten, Heinrich 09.05.1945 Oberfeldwebel Zugführer i. d. 6./Gren.Rgt 1
173) Schäfer, Karl 16.04.1945 Oberfeldwebel Flugzeugfhr i. d. 14.(Eis)/K.G. 55
174) Scheibe, Siegfried 11.05.1945 SS-Ostubaf Kdr SS-Frw-PGR 48
175) Scherhorn, Heinrich 23.03.1945 Oberstleutnant Kdr Sich.Rgt 36
176) Schiemann, Gustav 09.05.1945 Major d.R. Kdr FEB 346
177) Schlags-Koch, Walter EL 09.05.1945 Otl. d.R. Kdr Sturm-Rgt AOK 2
178) Schmidt, Erich EL 09.05.1945 Major Kdr Führer-Pz.Rgt 2
179) Schmidt, Leonhard 30.04.1945 Hauptmann Btl.Fhr II./Fsch.Jäg.Rgt 1
180) Schmude, Ernst-Friedrich 09.05.1945 Hauptmann Führer II./Gren.Rgt 732
181) Schnappauf, Georg 09.05.1945 Major Kdr Führer-Pz.Rgt 1
182) Schnocks, Herbert 08.05.1945 Hauptmann Btl-Kdr im Gren.Rgt 317
183) Scholz, Karl 09.05.1945 Leutnant d.R. Führer 14./Gren.Rgt 4
184) Schubert, ? 09.05.1945 Gefreiter i. d. Festung Glogau
185) Schulz-Streeck, Karlheinz 09.05.1945 SS-Stubaf d.R. Kdr SS-Stug.Abt 11
186) Schütz, Erwin 09.05.1945 Hauptmann d.R. Kdr II./Gren.Rgt 1127
187) Schwanitz, Joachim 09.05.1945 Hauptmann Führer II./Gren.Rgt 3
188) Schweitzer, Willi 24.04.1945 SS-Stubaf Kdr Kgr Schweitzer
189) Seibold, Emil 06.05.1945 SS-Hauptscharführer Zugfhr i. d. 8./SS-Pz.Rgt 2
190) Senbergs, Karlis 11.05.1945 W-Uschaf Grpfhr i.e. Alarmeinheit d 19.W-Gren.Div
191) Sensfuß, Franz EL 09.05.1945 Generalleutnant Kdr 212. Inf.Div
192) Siegroth von, Joachim EL 09.05.1945 Generalmajor Kdr 712. Inf.Div
193) Singer, Herbert 05.05.1945 Hauptmann Kdr II./Füs.Rgt 22
194) Spengler, Fritz 06.05.1945 Hauptmann Kdr I./Gren.Rgt 289
195) Stadler, Sylvester SW 06.05.1945 SS-Oberführer Kdr 9. SS-Pz.Div „Hohenstaufen“
196) Stahl, Paul Dr. EL 09.05.1945 Oberstleutnant d.R. Kdr Gren.Rgt 114
197) Starl, Matthias 01.06.1945 Hauptmann Kdr I./Geb.Jäg.Rgt 98
198) Steinke, Erhard 20.04.1945 Hauptmann Btl-Fhr i. d. 129. Inf.Div
199) Stenwedel, Albert 03.05.1945 SS-Stubaf Kdr II./Waffen-Geb.Jäg.Rgt der SS 27
200) Störck, Georg EL 09.05.1945 Hauptmann d.R. Kdr I./Pz.Gren.Rgt / Führer-Begl-Div
201) Strobl, Heinrich 09.05.1945 Lt Streifkorpsfhr/ Frontaufkl.-Kdo 202
202) Stülpnagel von, Carl-Heinrich 21.08.1941 Gen d Inf OB 17. Armee [20. Juli 1944]
203) Stützle, Nepomuk 08.05.1945 Obergefreiter i. d. Pz.Jäg.Abt „GD“
204) Tenschert, Günther 28.04.1945 Major Kdr II./Rgt Mohr i. d. Festung Breslau
205) Tessenow, Rudolf 11.05.1945 Wachtmeister i. d. 11./Pz.Rgt 24
206) Thieme, Karl SW 09.05.1945 Oberstleutnant Kdr Pz.Gren.Rgt 110
207) Thiessen, Hans 09.05.1945 Leutnant Führer 2./Heeres-Flak.Art.Abt „GD“
208) Thüngen Frhr von, Karl 06.04.1943 Generalleutnant Kdr 18. Pz.Div [20. Juli 1944]
209) Timpe, Heinz 07.05.1945 Leutnant Chef 1./Heeres-Sturm.Art.Brig 300 (Feld)
210) Turnwald, Hans 08.05.1945 Leutnant d.R. Fhr Jagd-Pz-Kp 1015
211) Unrau, Heinz 01.05.1945 Major Kdr I./K.G. 51
212) Vierecker, Fritz 28.04.1945 Hptm Fhr einer Alarmeinheit im Oderabschnitt
213) Vitali, Viktor 30.04.1945 Leutnant Zugführer i. d. 5./Fsch.Jäg.Rgt 4
214) Voigt, Hans 28.04.1945 Generalmajor Kampf-Kommandant Arnswalde
215) Vöglte, Helmut 01.06.1945 Hauptmann d.R. Kdr II./Geb.Jäg.Rgt 99
216) Voshage, Werner 08.05.1945 Major Kdr Heeres-Flak.Art.Abt „Brandenburg“
217) Wagener, Otto Dr. 05.05.1945 Generalmajor z.V. Kdt Ost-Aegaeis
218) Walle, Gustav 08.05.1945 Major Kdr Pz.Jäg.Abt „GD“
219) Walter, Helmut 09.05.1945 Hptm Btl.Fhr i.d. Feld-Uffz-Schule Dahlhausen
220) Weck, Hans-Joachim 30.04.1945 Leutnant Führer 3./Fsch.Jäg.Rgt 4
221) Wecker, Franz 09.05.1945 Oberstleutnant Kdr Jäg.Rgt 734
222) Weidinger, Otto SW 06.05.1945 SS-Obersturmbannfhr Kdr SS-PGR 4 „Der Führer“
223) Weiler, Bruno 09.05.1945 Oberst Kdr Ski-Jäg.Rgt 1
224) Weinlig, Werner 10.05.1945 Kapitänleutnant Kdt „T 23“
225) Werner, Heinz EL 06.05.1945 SS-Sturmbannführer Fhr III./SS-PGR 4 „Der Führer“
226) Wilhelm, Paul 05.05.1945 Hfw Fhr e Alarm-Kp im Marsch-Btl 469
227) Wisliceny, Günther-Eberhard SW 06.05.1945 SS-Ostubaf Kdr SS-PGR 3
228) Witzleben von, Erwin 24.06.1940 GenO OB 1. Armee [20. Juli 1944]
229) Woehl, Edmund 28.04.1945 Oberstleutnant Kdr Pz.Gren.Rgt 30
230) Wulff, Erich 09.05.1945 Major i.G. Ia 15. Waffen-Gren.Div der SS
231) Zoppoth, Gerhard 09.05.1945 Leutnant Führer 6./Gren.Rgt 732
232) Zurin, Alfred 09.05.1945 Leutnant Führer 3./Gren.Rgt 189

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Frech
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Post by Frech » 23 Jan 2007 17:54

Hi to all,

I agree with most of what is written above. According to the list I could find some men who were involved in the 20th of July 1944 (Witzleben, Olbricht, Stülpnagel, Hoepner and Fromm ). I assume it is sue that they all were owners of their KCs. Maybe those assignements were deleted after 20th of July, I dont know. But they were KC holders.

But nevertheless I am sure that after 1st of May 1945 there was a lot of awards which were self-organized at all....

Regards

Christian

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Post by krichter33 » 27 Jan 2007 00:53

Scherzer's research is interesting, but I still accept the findings of the ODR. If one man can come after sixty years and feel justified in stripping these awards because of bureaucratic reasons, at a time when there were basically no bureaucracies left in Germany, then I guess he is entitled to do so. But as far as I'm concerned the ODR has the final say on this matter, because they are the organization that represents Knight's Cross winners. I think some of Scherzer's bureaucratic nitpicking is quite hilarious as well. Especially the fact that he tries to use such 'rules and regulations' at a time in the Third Reich where the rule of law had pretty much disappeared, and any notion of bureaucratic order had ceased to exist. For example, General Dietrich may have 'officially' awarded these awards, though technically according to the old Fuhrer order he was not one of the original generals in a particular zone that was entitled to do so. Frankly I could care less. First of all, HITLER WAS DEAD by this time. Second, the zones changed shape, command structures, ect... So, If one of the highest ranking Generals in the Waffen SS deems a particular soldier worthy of the Knight's Cross, then I accept that. I could care less about a long dead order. The same goes with Scherzer negating any Knights Cross awards by Doenitz. This I find to be hilarious. Yes the war ended on the 8th, however, Doenitz government technically lasted a few weeks longer. Oh yeah, and he happened to be the FUHRER at this time. So according the Scherzer the very Fuhrer himself could not award these medals, and thus they are cancelled!!! What a joke. Overall, I think Scherzer's research in the bureaucracy of the awarding process, and its breakdown towards the end of the War, is sound and important. But when all of a sudden he feels that it is up to him, sixty years after the fact, to come in with a black marker and "cancel" certain awards because they didn't fit into this nice little bureaucratic box at a time when any such box had ceased to exist, I find that behavior repulsive. And by the way, I'm not taking about outright cheats who lied about their award, that's a different matter, and those cheats should be exposed. But overall I'm glad the ODR has rejected Scherzer's work. My only fear, is in the future, publications of Ritterkreuztrager books, like the Biblio Verlags, or other upcoming ones, that the author's might feel 'pressured' into removing Knight's Cross holders from their works. For this I suggest a compromise. Any future book dealing with Knight's Cross holders should include all holders listed in Fellgeibel's list. However, if the author wants to, he can add an asterisk to any of the cancelled Knight's Cross holder, and mention this as a footnote. This is actually what Florian Berger did in his last book: "RITTERKREUZTRÄGER AUS ÖSTERREICH UND DEN K.U.K. KRONLÄNDERN." He included all Austrian Knight's Cross holders in the book. The ones "canceled" by Scherzer he placed a small footnote mentioning this. Anyways, thats all I have to say. So all you Scherzer people out there can flame away at me as much as you like, I'm done discussing this topic.

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Post by Bernd R » 28 Jan 2007 21:00

Thanks krichter33 !
that’s what I call a statement and an opinion !
Touching many aspects and containing some very good points to think about.

As I’m feeling myself it is not so easy to answer your arguments and points of view completely (without getting very long), maybe it would be helpful to have a basical overview on the different complexes, which Scherzer has researched.

We would have the thesis for so-called “Dönitz-Erlaß”, “Dietrich awards” (06.05.1945), confirmation and “yes” through the OdR, “Italy” / Heidrich complex ; “Kreta” complex , …
in a short recapitulation and description here as a point to start.

This eventually would also make it easier and that’s what I suggest also, to concentrate a post on one complex / aspect.
Beside general statements and opinions, as a third possibility statements on single recipients could be made ; some cases need a more detailed view, no question.


What I would like to remark in reaction to krichter33 :

1) Can the question “Who is KC holder ?” only be answered from a legal point of view ?
what he call “bureaucratic” and “nitpicking”
Or, if we take into consideration the breakdown of the Third Reich and the chaotic and non-functioning structures during the last weeks, is it a must for another handling ?

Are there examples for awards in breakdowns of nations worldwide in history ?

If a comparison is allowed : to my knowlede the US Congressial Medal of Honour is awarded with the words “The congress to …”
if we for a moment imagine the same circumstances for the U.S. like in Germany in 1945 what would be the handling then ? would awards by the MoH society the time after be accepted ?
To come back to the point : has the OdR the right to award ?
or is there only a right to accept recipients as their members ?

2) The work off of WW2 and the Third Reich in many aspects reached a high level today, 60 years later. Topics “Schuld” , “Nürnberger Prozesse” , Widerstand/20.Juli 1944, Holocaust are researched very well. Last years “Verbrechen der Wehrmacht” came into light (-> Ausstellung and books).
Regarding it as a work off in the field of military, it seems that the topic “KC holders” hasn’t reached a high level today ; the work of Scherzer seems to be a proof for that impression.

To say it clearly, what’s my opinion on that :
Von Seemen, Krätschmer and Fellgiebel (and others, e.g. Obermaier) did a lot of work, which is to respect, but they left it unfinished to us, in parts they left a chaos ; especially the OdR (in person of Fellgiebel) did !
When Mr. Scherzer is coming now, making new research and presenting it in an objective way, with arguments and some logic, we shouldn’t blame him for that.
Another thing we should look on, is why and how he put out the black marker for crossing out recipients.

And we in no way should feel “pressured” here for anything. It’s only the issue that counts, in any case for me.

regards, luchs

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Post by John Toner » 30 Jan 2007 15:49

Whatever about the questionable legality of awards, I think it is wrong to exclude those whose legal awards were 'cancelled' as a result of charges from 20 July. I still regard them as ritterkreuztraeger.

John

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Bernd R
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Post by Bernd R » 16 Mar 2007 19:15

"All quiet on ..." in this thread

nothing ? nobody ?

Your thoughts, arguments and opinions would be very interesting to many of us,
I still think.

regards, Bernd

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Post by Jan-Hendrik » 16 Mar 2007 19:35

The next one to cancel would be Feuchtinger as he was officially "verurteilt&degradiert" for leaving his troops, which normally implies that he had lost his rights to wear any decorations. The same goes for those ones who were condemmed because of connections to the 20th-July-Circle.

Here is the problem for the scientific approach (had a long discussion with Mr.Scherzer egarding this topic). If someone should be counted as an official wearer of a decoration it must fullfill all rules for the Verleihung, especially the complexes "who was allowed to judge about decoration or not" and "who was allowed to deny an already presented decoration" . And this was indeed only the Heerespersonalamt. And their decisions count, even as we cannot go conform with every decision they did in our days.

And I must admit, I go conform with Mr.Scherzers statement :wink:

(I know Dieter had put this already in more elegant words than myself many times before here on AHF :D But I wanted to state my point of view, too..)

Jan-Hendrik

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Post by Jan-Hendrik » 20 Mar 2007 16:52

Interesting should be also the "Ergänzungsband" by Veit Scherzer:

http://tinyurl.com/3a6863

Jan-Hendrik

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More Cancelling Out!

Post by Edward L. Hsiao » 27 Mar 2007 23:31

Gentlemen,

Hermann Fegelein had his decorations and high rank taken away from him. Hitler had him shot as a deserter on April 29th 1945. General Walter Seydlitz-Kurzbach who held the Knight's Cross with Oak Leaves was sentenced to death in absenta by Hitler for treason. He was the head of the "Free Germany Committee" a Communist runned organization. These two were cancelled out in the Ritterkreuztraeger list. For those RK holders who joined the "Free Germany Committee" while as POW's,they were cancelled out too if the Nazi leadership knew about them. Just a thought from me.

Sincerely,

Edward

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Bernd R
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Post by Bernd R » 29 Mar 2007 12:55

125) Limburg-Hetlingen von, Enno-Erich 03.05.1945 Oberst Kdr Gren.Rgt 731

quotation from the "cancelled" list above.

There was coming up new info about this individual case here in the "Knight's Cross Holders Identification" sticky on [page 143]
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=29879&start=2130

[Freiherr wrote]Source: Detlev Niemann.

This was for sale, Oberst RKT on 06.04.1945, DKiG, Silver wound badge.

There were no award of Heer RK on 06.04.45. And the "6"s on the shoulder boards are a bit of a puzzle to me. However, the signature looks like GenLt "Reichert". A guess would be Obst Enno Erich v Limburg-Hetlingen, Kmdr, GrRgt 731, RK 03.05.45, DKiG
. [/quote]

quotation of my 711. ID list from "awardholders/unit" thread

Quote:
711. Infanterie – Division
(formed may 1941 ; occupation duty at the Channel Coast/15. Armee ; action : Normandie, june/july 1944 ;
refitted sept-dec 1944 in the Netherlands ; since dec 1944 : Ungary)

total : 4 KC / including 1 unofficial

Stab :

1. Reichert, Josef 09.12.1944 Generalleutnant Kdr 711. Inf.Div

Grenadier – Regiment 731 :

2. Ließmann, Helmut 03.11.1944 Hauptmann d.R. Führer III./Gren.Rgt 731
3. Limburg-Hetlingen von, Enno-Erich 03.05.1945 Oberst Kdr Gren.Rgt 731

Grenadier – Regiment 744 :

4. Post, Eduard 28.02.1945 Hauptmann d.R. Kdr III./Gren.Rgt 744


and very interesting, this case and now this Ritterkreuz entry !!

in short : Veit Scherzer is referring of absolutely no hints on a KC proposal nor a confirmation of an award.

concerning the "6" : according Scherzer (page 130, end of text, additional info) von Limburg-Hetlingen in 1939 was Bataillons-Kommandeur im IR 6 !


What a complete serendipity!! While looking into v Tippelskirch in Miocid's suggestion in my "Heinrici Entourage" thread, I noticed that Josef Reichert himself was Kmdr of IR6 of 30 Inf Div. I have a lousy picture of the two together. You would think Reichert would just let v Limburg-Hetlingen wear the "6" as they were the "IR 6 mafia" in 711 Div.

Cheers
Freiherr


Freiherr,
according lexikon-der-wehrmacht and ABR : Oberst Reichert Kdr IR 6 : 24.11.1938 - 17.09.1941

aha, "6" boys united here, yes

so, it is no judging about the case, but : if v. Limburg-Hetlingen was awarded the KC "unofficially", is it on proposal by General Kreysing in april 1945 (family has a copy of a certificate of Kreysing stating that) or is it "13. Verleihung durch General der Gebirgstruppe Konrad im Auftrag der HGr Süd" [Fellgiebel] it would be an understandable procedere to make the Soldbuch entry and the signing by Reichert..

regards, Bernd



If it's possible to have such a more complete and additional look on a case the place should be also here.

quite interesting , for the record :
"No" : -> no confirmation found for an award by Veit Scherzer
"Yes" : -> Soldbuch entry : "Ritterkreuz 6.4.1945 / 10.4.1945 / Generalleutnant Reichert"

regards, Bernd

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Post by Bernd R » 29 Mar 2007 13:45

The deprivation of awards was pointed out and discussed here.
It seems to be a really new field of research and KC Holders literature.

From the above "cancelled" list the recipients in question ; note in [ ] was made by me for better understanding :

50) Fromm, Friedrich 06.07.1940 Gen d Art Chef HRüst und BdE [20. Juli 1944]
74) Heistermann von Ziehlberg, Gustav 27.07.1944 Genlt Kdr 28. Jäg.Div [20. Juli 1944]
76) Herfurth, Otto 14.09.1942 Oberst Kdr Inf.Rgt 117 [20. Juli 1944]
81) Hoepner, Erich 27.10.1939 Gen d Kav K.G. XVI. AK [1942 and 20. Juli 1944]
92) Hößlin von, Roland 23.07.1942 Hauptmann Fhr Pz.AA 33 [20. Juli 1944]
96) Jäger, Fritz 26.05.1940 Major Kdr II./Inf.Rgt 8 [20. Juli 1944]
126) Lindemann, Fritz 04.09.1941 Oberst z.V. Arko 138 [20. Juli 1944]
148) Olbricht, Friedrich 27.10.1939 Generalleutnant Kdr 24. Inf.Div [20. Juli 1944]
202) Stülpnagel von, Carl-Heinrich 21.08.1941 Gen d Inf OB 17. Armee [20. Juli 1944]
208) Thüngen Frhr von, Karl 06.04.1943 Generalleutnant Kdr 18. Pz.Div [20. Juli 1944]
228) Witzleben von, Erwin 24.06.1940 GenO OB 1. Armee [20. Juli 1944]


The judgement on General von Seydlitz-Kurzbach (26.04.1945 , Reichskriegsgericht Dresden) was quashed with judgement from February 18th 1956 by the Landgericht Verden/Aller [Scherzer, page 91]
Therefore, think he is rehabilitated.

Fegelein is a special case, would be great if someone could provide info from the "Ergänzungsband".

In general, as far as I have understood this deprivation issue the men have been judged according § 30 Militärstrafgesetzbuch (MSTGB) what resulted in a so-called "Ehrenstrafe" = Verlust der Wehrwürdigkeit (loss of worthiness for military service).
quotation from the text of § 30 MSTG : "... 2. den dauernden Verlust der Orden und Ehrenzeichen..."
They lost the right of their awards with the date of the judgement then ?
and can be regarded as official KC holders from the time they got the award until the judgement (?)

After a first reflection I would state them as KC holders and list them with their units and add the remark that they lost the award by judgement after 20. Juli 1944.

Bernd

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Post by Frech » 29 Mar 2007 15:12

Hi,

I agree with the last sentence of Bernd very much. For correct historical work it should be done that way.

Regards

Christian

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