Die Panzerknacker - the holders of the tank destruction badge

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Daniel L
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Re: Die Panzerknacker- the holders of the tank destruction badge

#751

Post by Daniel L » 11 Sep 2008, 19:07

Hello all, it was quite common to have several badges in silver instead of the golden badge. Many never even heard of the gold version. To also keep in mind was that the gold version was instroduced after the silver badge had been in circulation for a while.

I don't recall having seen any evidence of Kiesgen receiving any further badges than the five he wears on the photos shown in this thread and other places.

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Re: Die Panzerknacker- the holders of the tank destruction badge

#752

Post by Jan-Hendrik » 11 Sep 2008, 19:24

By the way, Anding states himself he was awarded with the RK for destroying 6 enemy tanks...and he was wounded in this action and saw no combat action after that. He had 6 Panzervernichter...all interpretations of "might be a golden one" on a simple BW-Picture are nonsense.

Jan-Hendrik


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Re: Die Panzerknacker- the holders of the tank destruction badge

#753

Post by W.Vermeer » 11 Sep 2008, 20:20

Still see much speculation and not many proof. Just referring to the Reichsblatt regulations.
Just see a lot of conclusions just based on the photos without any other proof. Seems somewhat strange looking at how much proof is asked regarding to other decorations on this forum. Besides sthat I see also several persons mentioned just for the tanks they destroyed without real proof of receiving the badges.
But I believe criticism just to make research more historical correct looks not very welcome here.
Sorry I am not such a fast believer.

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Re: Die Panzerknacker- the holders of the tank destruction badge

#754

Post by W.Vermeer » 11 Sep 2008, 20:22

Hello all, it was quite common to have several badges in silver instead of the golden badge. Many never even heard of the gold version. To also keep in mind was that the gold version was instroduced after the silver badge had been in circulation for a while.
Could very wel be, but give me the historical proof and show then that this was researched with the specific persons. I miss that in this threat, what on the other hand is very well done with a topic like the Awards per unit.

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Re: Die Panzerknacker- the holders of the tank destruction badge

#755

Post by W.Vermeer » 11 Sep 2008, 20:25

I don't recall having seen any evidence of Kiesgen receiving any further badges than the five he wears on the photos shown in this thread and other places.
I have yet only seen the photo as proof, no documents what so ever. I did not state it was different, but just stated a question.

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Daniel L
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Re: Die Panzerknacker- the holders of the tank destruction badge

#756

Post by Daniel L » 11 Sep 2008, 21:45

Yes, some names are mentioned for having been entitled to the badges without receiving them or documentation for the award. At the same time the documentation for the badges were not always as proper as for other decorations like the German Cross in Gold or the Iron Cross. One should also remember that it was a badge rather than an award, although it might have been used as such at times. The result being that the research on the matter is complicated.

Your criticism is welcome but please don't think that this thread is showing the actual research. It is more a forum to discuss the topic and so on. When it comes to Viezenz I can for example refer to his personal file where it is stated that he received seven badges (first five, then two more) in total prior to him receiving the Knight's cross.

Daniel

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Re: Die Panzerknacker- the holders of the tank destruction badge

#757

Post by W.Vermeer » 12 Sep 2008, 10:29

Excellent, but would't it be more convenient and more welcome to make it a bit more like a research? I already have seen some places where the list of recipients here produced is being used as a list to state who received the badge. That makes it somewhat inaccurate, while we here have the oppertunity to do some accurate research with each other.

It would be nice to try and find together more details with each person. So we could try and find out at least how many single handed destroyed tanks with a person have been recorded. Discovered could be on which dates and perhaps even which tank. Together with more photo research on a person it could then be concluded how many badges the person received. By having the dates we could see if there already was a golden badge (institution dates).

Although not many award documents have been fond, we could try and trace down which where found. Also many of the awardings were however recorded in the Tagesbefehle of the units involved. Perhaps many of those could be found. Finally various mentionings in primary and secundary sources could be added. By combining all these information there could be made a much more accurate account.

Why not make this topic more a research than just a discussion topic.

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Re: Die Panzerknacker- the holders of the tank destruction badge

#758

Post by Daniel L » 12 Sep 2008, 11:06

The things you mention are already being done, I keep listing of all the things you mention. I believe it is already mentioned in the thread. I can of course make some sort of clarification should it be of interest.

As for people copying the list and then producing it on their own sites and so on, without noticing that it is in no way complete despite that it is noted here, this is hardly something that we can be held accountable for, is it?

Daniel

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Re: Die Panzerknacker- the holders of the tank destruction badge

#759

Post by W.Vermeer » 12 Sep 2008, 11:31

Off course Daniel we can not be held accountable for actions done by others. Reading this topic, I merely concluded in my opinion we can do so much more accurate research then already has been done. That there is so much more information we could share with each other on this matter than already is being done.
Perhaps it is only my problem, but I have some mixed feelings in just placing someone on a list beceause in one specific book (secundary source) there is mentioning that someone had been awarded the badge, without trying to do some more research on the persons "tank kills" and backgrounds on that, or just by the photo ittelf, without stating and trying to find more bakcground on those badges wearing. I still am not convinced that in every case it is straight possible to see whicht badges are worn (silver or golden), one should I think then try and find out when the photo aws taken en compare that with the tanks destroyed at that moment etc. Perhaps it would be goood to agree together on some research criteria if people here are interested in even completing the matter further.

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Re: Die Panzerknacker- the holders of the tank destruction badge

#760

Post by W.Vermeer » 12 Sep 2008, 14:22

Daniel, have a look at the Bandenkampfabzeichen topic, that is a striking exemple of what I mean I think is an exellent way to make this topic even more interesting and good then it already is.

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Re: Die Panzerknacker- the holders of the tank destruction badge

#761

Post by W.Vermeer » 13 Sep 2008, 00:22

To show a little what I mean, here an exemple of possible research of a person with known data (not complete however)

Ahrens, Hinrich

Known: 4 kills
?
?
?
16-10-1944: T-34

PVAs:
07-02-1943
09-11-1943
19-11-1943
18-11-1944: Unteroffizier, 13. / Grenadier-Regiment 1141 / 561.Volks-Grenadier-Division
During a large scale Soviet armour assault on October 16th, 1944, Ahren's PaK unit destroyed many of the 70 enemy tanks his division was credited with. It was during this action that Unteroffizier Ahrens earned his fourth Panzervernichtungsabzeichen (Tank Destruction Badge) for knocking out a Soviet T-34 with hand grenades.

Sources:
- Breyette T.W., Bender R.J., Tank Killers: History of the Tank Destruction Badge
- Photo with badges (4) on http://www.ritterkreuztraeger-1939-45.d ... inrich.htm

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Re: Die Panzerknacker- the holders of the tank destruction badge

#762

Post by W.Vermeer » 13 Sep 2008, 01:21

Don't know if they have been clarified here with accurate clarification, but on the Militaria Fundforum (http://militaria-fundforum.de) I found the next proof:

Lutz, Johannes, Golden awarded by Divisions-Befehl dated 15th January 1945
source, mentioned Divisions-Befehl published on the Militaria-Fundforum

and

Rossberg, Heinrich, Silver awarded according to Bescheinigung dated 28th February 1944
source, Bescheinigung published on Militaria Fundforum

I can't publish the two documents here for they ar not in my posession, do have the jpg files if someone is interested.

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Re: Die Panzerknacker- the holders of the tank destruction badge

#763

Post by W.Vermeer » 13 Sep 2008, 18:20

One more addition with the specified proof (award document and tagesbefehl) on http://users.telenet.be/eisernes_kreuz/ ... rafie.html

Stather, Heribert (KC holder) Sonderabzeichen für das Niederkämpfen von Panzerkampfwagen durch Einzelkämpfer
8 januari 1944
Major
Stab I./GrenRgt 482

On the Tagesbefehl also a second person is mentioned for having received the decoration the same day, but that name is not readable by me.

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New Photo

#764

Post by Porsche » 17 Sep 2008, 23:52

Hi,
I have some new photo's of PVA winners :D . This one was labeled as Harald Nugiseks, but I don't think it's him. It's an SS-Untersharfuhrer with 1 PVA and RKT in what looks like Totenkopf. Any help would be appreciated.

Cheers,

Neil
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Re: Die Panzerknacker- the holders of the tank destruction badge

#765

Post by FANGIO » 18 Sep 2008, 04:26

Hi Neil!

Your man in Hans Hirning.
http://www.das-ritterkreuz.de/index_sea ... rd=hirning

Best,

FANGIO

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