Poland 1939: KIA German officers

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Jan-Hendrik
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Re: Poland 1939: KIA High ranking officers

Post by Jan-Hendrik » 07 Dec 2008 08:19

Wikipedia is a "source"? That explains much :lol:

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Re: Poland 1939: KIA High ranking officers

Post by Peter K » 07 Dec 2008 09:57

On 12th of September Major Sudau took over command over the Infanterie-Regiment 44 - and was commanding it at least until the end of the Polish Campaign...

But I didn't manage to find any other information - except those which were provided by Rian - about what happened to its previous commander - Major Krawutschke.

I also know that Major Sudau became the commander of Infanterie-Regiment 44. on 12th of September 1939 - and was commanding it at least until the end of the Polish Campaign. Before that Major Krawutschke was the commander of this regiment. Does "your" document tell us what happened with him - if it does not mention that he was KIA - as other sources do? What was the reason why Major Krawutschke stopped to be the commander of the regiment during that intense battle?

If it comes to Major Krawutschke - he stopped commanding his regiment on 11th or on 12th of September - and was replaced by Major Sudau - I still wonder why / what happened to him - I still didn't manage to find an answer / find anything which is reffering to it (except the info which was given by Rian).

I hope someone did / will.

But how can you explain the fact that on 12th of September Major Sudau took over command over the regiment?

What happened to Major Krawutschke?


Wikipedia is a "source"?


Tadeusz Jurga, Władysław Karbowski - "Armia Modlin 1939" - page 283 (also "Wojna Obronna" - page 1040):

"[...] As the result of the German defeat at Kałuszyn, according to general Kowalski - "first ring of encirclement of units which were surrounding the division, was victoriously broken [...] commander of 44. Infanterie-Regiment [...] shot himself, while seeing the disaster of his units at dawn - as captured regimental aide-de-camp testified."

Another note:

"Polskie Siły Zbrojne" ("Polish Armed Forces") - volume I/3 - page 126:

"[...] There were rumours (false), that commander of the German Infanterie-Regiment 44. commited suicide."

First of all - who was the commander of Infanterie-Regiment 44. in period 1st of September - 11th / 12th of September? According to "Lexikon der Wehrmacht" it was Major Krawutschke:

http://www.lexikon-der-wehrmacht.de/Gli ... IR44-R.htm

Was it Major Krawutschke or Oberst Fischer? - because some Polish relations mention the death of Oberst Fischer on 12th / 11th of September.

Was there any Oberst Fischer in Heeresgruppe Nord (maybe in 11. Infanterie-Division, in I. Korps or in Korps "Wodrig") - if yes - which unit was he commanding and what happened to him?

Cheers.

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Re: Poland 1939: KIA High ranking officers

Post by Peter K » 07 Dec 2008 12:28

One more:

Hauptmann von Schmeling (or Schmellig ?) - commander of 1. kompanie of I./Infanterie-Regiment 73. - "am 18.9.1939 kurz nach 4 Uhr gefallen" - near D. Ruszki.

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Re: Poland 1939: KIA High ranking officers

Post by Rian » 07 Dec 2008 12:40

Wikipedia is a "source"? That explains much

Jan-Hendrik

I know that wikipedia is controversial "source". Becouse that - I ask about Major Krawutschke on forum.

I found on lexikon-der-wehrmach - commanding officers of IR 44:

"Regimentskommandeure:

1935 Major Heisig

1939 Major Krawutschke

1939 Major Sudau"

In 1939 commanding officer was changed (Domen source - on 12th Sept. - after battle of Kaluszyn). What story with major Krawutschke?? Was he killed or wounded?? Or mayby is some truth in wikipedia "source" ("commited suicide").

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Re: Poland 1939: KIA High ranking officers

Post by Jan-Hendrik » 07 Dec 2008 12:43

When there would be a "truth" in Wiki he would have been listed at the officers casualities what he simply is NOT. The most effective way to gather information on this man would be to open a new topic on him here, but better without stupid comments like those ones from our "expert" domen :wink:

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Bernd R
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Re: Poland 1939: KIA High ranking officers

Post by Bernd R » 07 Dec 2008 13:11

OK, gentlemen, no need to perform offense in this fine thread. Back to normal, please !

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Re: Poland 1939: KIA High ranking officers

Post by Peter K » 07 Dec 2008 13:40

but better without stupid comments like those ones


But those comments weren't stupid - read "Luftwaffe over Poland" by Emmerling - there are some reports which are saying about "lead poisoning" as the reason of some deaths among Luftwaffe pilots :D - German "experts" detected some "lead" in their corpses and found out that they must have "died" because of "lead poisoning" after their planes had "crashed" because of "failures" - or rather - "lead poisoning of the engine" :idea: .

There was also such a coincidence - but not reported in documents prepared by German "experts", only discovered after the war - that Polish planes were operation in the nearbyhood - and were carrying some "lead" on boards.

Btw - maybe for you it is stupid, for me it is funny.

When there would be a "truth" in Wiki he would have been listed at the officers casualities what he simply is NOT. The most effective way to gather information on this man would be to open a new topic on him here


You seem to ignore sources provided by me and still stubbornly stick to your fantastical "Wiki-theory":

Tadeusz Jurga, Władysław Karbowski - "Armia Modlin 1939" - page 283 (also "Wojna Obronna" - page 1040):

"[...] As the result of the German defeat at Kałuszyn, according to general Kowalski - "first ring of encirclement of units which were surrounding the division, was victoriously broken [...] commander of 44. Infanterie-Regiment [...] shot himself, while seeing the disaster of his units at dawn - as captured regimental aide-de-camp testified."

Another note:

"Polskie Siły Zbrojne" ("Polish Armed Forces") - volume I/3 - page 126:

"[...] There were rumours (false), that commander of the German Infanterie-Regiment 44. commited suicide."


It seems that the whole information originally comes from the German aide-de-camp of Infanterie-Regiment 44.

Another source - however - says that these were just rumours which had spread among panicked German soldiers from Infanterie-Regiment 44. - and later were repeated to the Poles by captured German regimental aide-de-camp in his testimony.

But it is known that on 12th of September Major Sudau took over command over the regiment.

So to discover the truth we should get some info about both Major Krawutschke and Major Sudau.

And what about that Oberst Fischer? Does anyone have something on him?

Rian:

Was he killed or wounded??


He could also be badly wounded / missing...

He could also simply run away (and never come back) from his regiment when the situation got worse.

Maybe he tried to shot himself but he didn't manage to do it properly :lol: .

Or he died and was just not reported in the report provided by Jan-Hendrik.

But to discover what happened we must have some additional info about him.

Cheers.

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Re: Poland 1939: KIA High ranking officers

Post by Bernd R » 07 Dec 2008 14:57

Dear Domen121,

you don't seem to realize what I wanted to say to you in a calm and friendly way. So, for the second time
OK, gentlemen, no need to perform offense in this fine thread. Back to normal, please !


Well, the usage of the term "stupid comments" by Jan-Hendrik wasn't ideal but I think we are sovereign enough to overcome such emotions and to look forward.
With "back to normal" I didn't mean a statement like this. Do you think this is a serious statement (+ the emoticotion) ?
Maybe he tried to shot himself but he didn't manage to do it properly :lol: .


So, please, calm down, and use the style this forum is used to, thanks.

Bernd , Mod

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Re: Poland 1939: KIA High ranking officers

Post by Peter K » 07 Dec 2008 15:05

OK, I realize - so I think that there should be a separate thread for Major Krawutschke, because it seems that the discussion about him is taking to much place, time and effort here - with no any considerable results so far.

Do you think this is a serious statement (+ the emoticotion)


Not really. :wink:

Cheers,

Domen

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Re: Poland 1939: KIA High ranking officers

Post by Peter K » 07 Dec 2008 18:43

Another one:

Hauptmann von Kockeritz - commander of 8. company of Panzer-Regiment 1. from 1. Panzer-Division - KIA during the battle of Kiernozia on 16th of September 1939.

His Panzer IV tank was destroyed by Polish 37mm AT gun - here are two photos of his tank after it was destroyed:

Image

The same Panzer IV after transporting it to Sochaczew (it was staying there at least until winter of 1939 / 1940):

Image

Sochaczew - Towarowa street - to be more accurate.
Last edited by Peter K on 07 Dec 2008 18:59, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Poland 1939: KIA High ranking officers

Post by Peter K » 07 Dec 2008 18:48

I wonder if anyone has got the list of KIA / MIA / DOW high ranking officers (or officers in general) from the German 30. Infanterie-Division during the Polish Campaign.

I know that its commander - Generalmajor Kurt von Briesen - was heavily wounded and lost his left forearm during the battle at the Bzura, when his division was attacked and defeated by the Polish forces.

He lost his forearm while personally leading the last counterattack of his last not crushed yet reserves, against the attacking Polish forces - I don't know the exact date. Explosion - or maybe some large splinter - just cut off his left forearm and inflicted severe wounds to him, but he managed to survive.

Unfortunately he was killed on 30th of November 1941 in Russia.

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Rian
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Re: Poland 1939: KIA High ranking officers

Post by Rian » 07 Dec 2008 20:44

SS-Obersturmführer Schomburg - from SS "Germania" - at Grodek Jagiellonski (15 September??)

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Re: Poland 1939: KIA High ranking officers

Post by Peter K » 10 Dec 2008 20:26

Two more:

Hauptmann Muris - commander of I./7. Infanterie-Regiment (28. ID) - KIA on 16.09.1939.

Hauptmann von Lany - from Schutzenregiment 3. of 3. Panzerdivision - KIA most probably on 03.09.1939.

What about him?:

SS-Obersturmführer Schomburg - from SS "Germania" - at Grodek Jagiellonski (15 September??)

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Re: Poland 1939: KIA High ranking officers

Post by Rian » 11 Dec 2008 00:14

What about him?:

SS-Obersturmführer Schomburg - from SS "Germania" - at Grodek Jagiellonski (15 September??)

Probably killed in battle with polish 11 ID.

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Re: Poland 1939: KIA High ranking officers

Post by Peter K » 12 Dec 2008 18:54

Some more:

Hauptmann von Lewinski - commander of 10. company from 15. Infanterieregiment (mot.) - 29. ID (Mot.) - KIA on 8th of September 1939 during combats in the forest Dąbrowa.

Hauptmann Grundies - commander of 1. company of I./71. Infanterieregiment (mot.) - 29. ID (Mot.) - KIA on 18th of September 1939.

Some of KIA from 8th Infanteriedivision:

Ib: Rittmeister Wagner (+ 20-9-1939)
IIb : Hauptmann (E) Peters (+ 20-9-1939)
38. IR - III battalion - Bat. Arzt: Stabsarzt Dr. Hesse (+ 18-9-1939)
AA 8. - 2. (radfahr): Rittmeister Preuß (+ 15-9-1939)

I have also got some KIA Oberleutnants from this division:

28. IR - 2./I. - Oberleutnant Kroesch (+ 16-9-1939)
38. IR - 8./II - Oberleutnant Borck (+ 2-9-1939)
84. IR - 14. - Oberleutnant von Chappuis (+ 22-9-1939)
84. IR - 2./I. - Oberleutnant Fiedler (+ 2-9-1939)

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