Poland 1939: KIA German officers

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Piotr Kapuscinski
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Re: Poland 1939: KIA German officers

#691

Post by Piotr Kapuscinski » 02 Apr 2009, 20:18

I agree with you that a document from 03. Jan. 1939 can not tell any details about future losses. But none of the persons listed in the pre war list is included at http://www.volksbund.de or in our loss list, covering more than 800 of those victims. Food for thought.
Ok, but still Flack says that Adjutant of III. battalion was KIA on 02.09.1939. He should know best - he was there on 02.09.1939.
With statistical maverick I meant the misrelation between (1) the statement that two batallions of a regiment were destroyed and (2) the fact that not a single of the active officer corps pre war was obviously reported KIA.
Yes, this is quite strange. Although officers could have been captured, or could have escaped. To destroy a battalion you don't need to kill its officers.

Another thing is that - according to Flack - at least one officer from III. battalion of Inf.Rgt.49 was killed there, on 02.09.1939.

Ratio killed officers : all killed in this division was like 16 : 579 (according to Kranz, page 107), in its Infanterie-Regiment 83. like 2 : 135 (according to the name list of Gefallene from this regiment), and in its III. battalion / Inf.Rgt.7 like 0 : 28 (according to the name list of Gefallene from this battalion from LdW) - so you can see that in this division percent of officer deaths in relation to all deaths was rather relatively low (similar situation - but with even much more soldiers and NCOs killed per each officer killed - was for example in 21. Infanterie-Division).

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Re: Poland 1939: KIA German officers

#692

Post by Stauffenberg II » 03 Apr 2009, 07:06

Hi!

Bernd, could you please exclude Du Plessis from our research section. He was not KIA in Poland 1939. As per as the official 1944 Rangliste he was still alive and well. He went on to become finally Oberst.

His entry:
Du Plessis, Grenadierregiment 30, 01.01.1943 (16)

Thanks!

Jürgen


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Re: Poland 1939: KIA German officers

#693

Post by Bernd R » 03 Apr 2009, 12:49

..and went on to receive the DKiG - if his christian name was Armand. Would be very nice to find out this additionally to have it 101% then.
Quote from the "awadholders/unit" sticky ; the assignment of the Rgt. was to Feldausbildungs-Division Nord, which should have been subordinated to Kampfkommandant Mitau at that time.
German Cross in Gold (1)
Plessis du, Armand, 25.08.1944, Oberst, Gren.Feldausb.Rgt. 639
/ Bernd

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Re: Poland 1939: KIA German officers

#694

Post by Stauffenberg II » 03 Apr 2009, 18:09

Bernd,

there is only one Du Plessis listed in the rank list 1944. So its him. Another one to add please:

Feder Gerhard, 06.12.1897, Oblt., -, -, 23.09.1939 (b. Antoniowka), VB

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Re: Poland 1939: KIA German officers

#695

Post by Bernd R » 03 Apr 2009, 19:53

Then it's clear, and the man has a first name beyond the aspect here. Update of the day done. New : 1 - research out : 1 - new total : 828 / + 35.

/ Bernd

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Re: Poland 1939: KIA German officers

#696

Post by Piotr Kapuscinski » 04 Apr 2009, 17:32

According to German StB on 03.01.1939 Major du Plessis was the commander of 4. company from I. / Infanterie-Regiment 30. - is he the same du Plessis?

I have found some more cases to research:

On 01.10.1939 near Maciejowice 22 Germans (including 2 officers) were KIA in combat against the "Separated Unit of 110. Uhlan Regiment of the Polish Army" under command of major Henryk Dobrzanski "Hubal" - famous "Der Tolle Major!"- they were from some SS unit - probably some communication unit. We don't have any SS officers KIA on 01.10.1939 listed yet, so these guys would be the new ones.

Other German officer casualties in combats against the Separated Unit of 110. Uhlan Regiment of the Polish Army under command of major Henryk Dobrzanski (last regular fighting unit of the pre-war Polish Armed Forces) were:

On 30.03.1940 during the battle of Huciska German forces lost 68 KIA (including 28 during the "main combat" and 40 during the Polish ambush against the German motorized column), including 55 privates and NCOs and 13 officers - including one Oberst.

On 30.04.1940 during the battle of Anielin (last battle of major "Hubal") German forces lost 11 KIA including 1 officer - his rank was major.

The photo below shows the death body of major Henryk Dobrzanski - pseudonym "Hubal" - and the German soldiers from 372. Infanterie-Division - it was taken on 30.04.1940. Although during the battle of Anielin Polish unit was attacked also by SS units, it is very probable that the KIA German major was serving in 372. Infanterie-Division of the Wehrmacht:

Image

This photo shows soldiers from major Hubal's unit - Winter of 1939:

Image

And two more names to be checked in VB - both of them are from Luftwaffe - some misspellings in their surnames are of course probable:

Major Hames - KIA on 04.09.1939 when his Bf-110 was shot down by porucznik Januszewicz over Warsaw
Unterfeldwebel Steffens (was flying in the same Bf-110) - captured

Oberst Hinske - KIA - shot down on 02.09.1939 over Warsaw by porucznik Cedrzynski
Last edited by Piotr Kapuscinski on 04 Apr 2009, 18:25, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Poland 1939: KIA German officers

#697

Post by Njorl » 04 Apr 2009, 18:02

Domen121 wrote:And two more names to be checked in VB - both of them are from Luftwaffe - some misspellings probable:

Major Hames - KIA on 04.09.1939 when his Bf-110 was shot down by porucznik Januszewicz over Warsaw
Unterfeldwebel Steffens (was flying in the same Bf-110) - captured
Major Karl Hammes is already listed.
Domen121 wrote:Oberst Hinske - KIA - shot down on 02.09.1939 over Warsaw by porucznik Cedrzynski
No such Hinske in VB. The only Hinske mentioned by Emmerling is Fledwebel Hubert Hinske of 5./LG 1, MIA after his He 111H, L1+KN, was shot down near Modlin on 01.09.1939. What's your source for him?

Regards,
MJU

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Re: Poland 1939: KIA German officers

#698

Post by Piotr Kapuscinski » 04 Apr 2009, 18:06

Source for all of them - Major Hames (not Hammes - so maybe there is a misspelling in my source), Oberst Hinske (both KIA) and Unterfeldwebel Steffens (captured - he was flying in the same Bf-110 as Hames) is the collection of Polish war-time 1939 accounts gathered by famous Polish journalist Melchior Wankowicz during the war - on emigration - and quoted in his book titled "Wrzesien Zagwiacy".

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Re: Poland 1939: KIA German officers

#699

Post by Stauffenberg II » 04 Apr 2009, 19:02

Bernd,

may I ask to put one further in the research section.

One of the early Luftwaffe experts Lt. Peter Boddem, one of the rare holder of the "Spanish Cross in Gold with Diamonds" and one of the top scorers in Spain (10 air victories) was allegedly "killed" in 1939, according to: http://www.wio.ru/spain/spain-a.htm

According to:
http://aces.safarikovi.org/victories/germany-ww2.html

his final score was 10. So I suggest to add him for further research.

Thanks!
Jürgen

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Re: Poland 1939: KIA German officers

#700

Post by Piotr Kapuscinski » 04 Apr 2009, 19:27

What about officers listed by me on this and the previous page?

I suggest to add SA-Obersturmbannführer Wilhelm Pisarski to the Master List and the rest of them to the Research Section.

Sources for Pisarski's death are:

- Files from MSWiA archive (protocols of interrogations of Polish witnesses)
- Files from Bundesarchiv-Militärarchiv (protocols of inspection of bodies during the exhumation in September of 1939 and protocols of evidences of witnesses)
- Jan Przemsza-Zielinski, "Slaski front '39: obrona Slaska i Zaglebia Dabrowskiego we wrzesniu 1939 roku", 1999
- Georg Bartosch, "OS wird frei! Tatsachenbericht aus den August- und Septembertagen 1939", Verlag Grenze und Ausland, 1940
- Rudolf Vogel, "Grenzerjunge im Blitzkrieg, Union Deutsche Verlagsgesellschaft", Stuttgart, 1940 (pages 26 - 45)

I suggest the following entry:

Pisarski Wilhelm, -, SA-Obersturmbannführer, Kdr. Kampfgruppe Pisarski, Kampftruppe Ebbinghaus, 01.09.1939 (Siemianowice Slaskie),

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Re: Poland 1939: KIA German officers

#701

Post by Stauffenberg II » 05 Apr 2009, 11:29

Stauffenberg II wrote:Bernd,

may I ask to put one further in the research section.

One of the early Luftwaffe experts Lt. Peter Boddem, one of the rare holder of the "Spanish Cross in Gold with Diamonds" and one of the top scorers in Spain (10 air victories) was allegedly "killed" in 1939, according to: http://www.wio.ru/spain/spain-a.htm

According to:
http://aces.safarikovi.org/victories/germany-ww2.html

his final score was 10. So I suggest to add him for further research.

Thanks!
Jürgen
Bernd, no need. The excellent page of Petr Kacha is listing his DoD with "KIFA 20/3/1939" ... so not campaign related:

http://www.luftwaffe.cz/spanishcw.html

Jürgen

PS: I will we back again when things are less busy.

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Re: Poland 1939: KIA German officers

#702

Post by Bernd R » 05 Apr 2009, 14:10

Hi Jürgen,

OK, would have been a surprise and a remarkable incident that an experienced fighter pilot was shot down in a dog fight (other thing is Flak, etc.) ; not too many cases, if any, if I summarize correctly. So, "Flight accident / Flugunfall" - those years were the high times of air crashes and car accidents, btw., a huge number overall in 1939-1945.

As we are still in a phase of gathering and on the start only concerning the research section, no need to hurry and to press anything into a time-table. If ok, let's go on with new input, reflecting some older input and do a possible preparation for your next rating and edit. :) A pleasure to assist in this way and I hope we are not to much on the "speed pedal". :)

btw., those incidents with the "Deutsche Kompanie" (Ebbinghaus, etc.), the predecessor of the Bau-Lehr-Kompanie "Brandenburg" zbV 800, are not unknown basically. Are those persons going to be included ? Eventually we should have additional material/confirmations ? (works potentially containing info are the "Brandenburger" works by Spaeter and Kurowski ; surely others, too).

- new - (VB)
Nachname: Kellner
Vorname: Johannes
Dienstgrad: Oberleutnant der Reserve
Geburtsdatum: 11.10.1899
Geburtsort: Breslau
Todes-/Vermisstendatum: 14.09.1939
Todes-/Vermisstenort: Lentschütz
Nachname: Keßler
Vorname: Wolfgang
Dienstgrad: Leutnant der Reserve
Geburtsdatum: 24.04.1916
Geburtsort: Suhl
Todes-/Vermisstendatum: 09.09.1939
Todes-/Vermisstenort: Ochota
Nachname: Kiel
Vorname: Fritz
Dienstgrad: Leutnant
Geburtsdatum: 12.12.1916
Geburtsort: Plön am See
Todes-/Vermisstendatum: 10.09.1939
Todes-/Vermisstenort: Sierpow pow. Leczyca
Nachname: Kiersch
Vorname: Werner
Dienstgrad: Leutnant
Geburtsdatum: 28.01.1918
Geburtsort: Lichtenwaldau
Todes-/Vermisstendatum: 16.09.1939
Todes-/Vermisstenort: Osuchy
and one man for research, resp. looking for an (first) answer with W-SS/SS expertise.
Nachname: Kamna
Vorname: Walter Friedrich
Dienstgrad: Untersturmführer
Geburtsdatum: 10.05.1905
Geburtsort: Gevelsberg
Todes-/Vermisstendatum: 03.10.1939
Todes-/Vermisstenort:

Walter Friedrich Kamna ruht auf der Kriegsgräberstätte in Herne-Südfriedhof (Bundesrepublik Deutschland) .
Endgrablage: Grab 150
Best regards
Bernd

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Re: Poland 1939: KIA German officers

#703

Post by Piotr Kapuscinski » 05 Apr 2009, 17:09

Hi Bernd!,
and one man for research, resp. looking for an (first) answer with W-SS/SS expertise.
Thanks, very probable that he is one of those two SS officers who were KIA near Maciejowice on 01.10.1939.

VB says that this SS officer was KIA on 03.10.1939.

Date in VB may be wrong - maybe that's because the whole unit (7 trucks which stuck in mud + 23 men - only 1 soldier escaped, 14 were KIA and 8 were killed personally by major Dobrzanski and Rodziewicz after surrendering) was destroyed during that ambush (maybe Germans found their bodies on 03.10.1939 ?).

Major Dobrzanski had a bad habit of killing German POWs, especcialy if they were from SS - he only used to spare Austrians and Bavarians as he was fond of these ethnic groups.

Regards
Peter

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Re: Poland 1939: KIA German officers

#704

Post by Jan-Hendrik » 05 Apr 2009, 17:21

Nachname: Kamna
Vorname: Walter Friedrich
Dienstgrad: Untersturmführer
Geburtsdatum: 10.05.1905
Geburtsort: Gevelsberg
Todes-/Vermisstendatum: 03.10.1939
Todes-/Vermisstenort:

Walter Friedrich Kamna ruht auf der Kriegsgräberstätte in Herne-Südfriedhof (Bundesrepublik Deutschland) .
Endgrablage: Grab 150
No SS-Führer of this name in the Führerliste.

Jan-Hendrik

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Re: Poland 1939: KIA German officers

#705

Post by Piotr Kapuscinski » 05 Apr 2009, 17:26

This Führerliste covers officers of which SS sub-branches?

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