Kdre / personnel der Kriegs- und Waffenschulen der Wehrmacht

Discussions on the personalities of the Wehrmacht and of the organizations not covered in the other sections. Hosted by Dieter Zinke, askropp and Frech.
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Bernd R
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Re: Kdre / personnel der Kriegs- und Waffenschulen der Wehrmacht

Post by Bernd R » 15 Jul 2009 17:47

correction / clarifying : Panzertruppenschule I, Wünsdorf

Taktische Lehrgänge
Detached to a Tactical Course at the Panzer-Troop-School I, Wünsdorf ??
Lehrg.-Leiter ?? Lehrer ??
1.03.1943 – 8.09.1943 – Oberst Walter Gorn

should read :
Regimentsführer-Lehrgänge
Kdr : 01.03.1943 - 08.09.1943 Oberst Walter Gorn

makes it in consequence
Rgts. Führ. Lehrg. (Schnelle Truppen ??)
Lehrg.-Leiter
4.01.1943 - 20.04.1943 - Oberst Erpo Frhr. von Bodenhausen

should read :
Regimentsführerlehrgänge
...
Lehrgangsleiter : rest same data

final check welcome !

/ Bernd

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Re: Kdre / personnel der Kriegs- und Waffenschulen der Wehrmacht

Post by Bernd R » 15 Jul 2009 17:57

revised entry : Panzertruppenschule II, Krampnitz
Kdr Lehrgänge
01.11.1943 - 15.01.1944 O Walter Gorn
this was the detachment -> Taktische Lehrgänge

In the Schulkommandeur list he is listed after GM Grolig with the start date "15.01.1944". I have it also - working through some older files - as per 01.01.1944. Maybe there was a transition period (?). Officially (appointment / order) per Jan 1st ?

Final input and check welcome !

/ Bernd

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Re: Kdre / personnel der Kriegs- und Waffenschulen der Wehrmacht

Post by Bernd R » 15 Jul 2009 18:19

addition & clarifying : Panzertruppenschule II, Krampnitz
Taktische Lehrgänge
...
- Lehrgruppe II (Kp.Führer für Pz.Gren. und Pz.Pioniere)
Kdr Lehrgruppe II : 01.10.1943 - 00.07.1944 Major Werner Rode

and this one and the same command continues during the merging time period :
remark :
after the moving from Krampnitz to Bergen in july/august 1944 there was a kind of independence of the former Krampnitz school, now Panzertruppenschule II, Bergen, with the Lehrgruppen für Panzergrenadiere und Panzeraufklärer under the command of Oberst Glaesemer during the time period july – oct 1944 .
Panzergrenadier-Lehrgänge : O Wolfgang Glaesemer / O von Fabeck
Lehrgruppe Bataillonsführer (Hermannsburg) : OTL Neubeck , Maj Salb
Lehrgruppe Kp-Führer (Oldendorf) : OTL Werner Rode , Maj Köhler , Hptm Möbius , Hptm Rehfeld
= Kdr. Lehrgruppe Kp-Führer : Maj / OTL [1.10.44] Werner Rode , 00.07.1944 - 00.10.1944

source :
http://www.ritterkreuztraeger-1939-45.d ... Werner.htm

There is a gap - not finally detected, if / when in Oct 1944 he left Bergen after his promotion.

/ Bernd

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Re: Kdre / personnel der Kriegs- und Waffenschulen der Wehrmacht

Post by Jan-Hendrik » 15 Jul 2009 18:29

if / when in Oct 1944 he left Bergen after his promotion.
He did not left, the Pz.Jgd.Brg. he led at the Weser was formed by trainees of the school emplacements in the area of Bergen-Fallingbostel (hint: the mysterious Panzerdivision Bergen) :D

Jan-Hendrik

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Re: Kdre / personnel der Kriegs- und Waffenschulen der Wehrmacht

Post by Bernd R » 15 Jul 2009 18:58

..if we leave out the mysterious things this time..another burdon in this schools context of course - :)
For now, what can be written seriously, is the end date of Rode's Lehrgruppen command in Oct 44, as this is the last secure fact ? (though most likely this lasted until the end of the year)

/ Bernd

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Re: Kdre / personnel der Kriegs- und Waffenschulen der Wehrmacht

Post by Jan-Hendrik » 16 Jul 2009 07:48

For now, what can be written seriously, is the end date of Rode's Lehrgruppen command in Oct 44, as this is the last secure fact ? (though most likely this lasted until the end of the year)
You got mail regarding Krampnitz and Bergen :wink:

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Re: Kdre / personnel der Kriegs- und Waffenschulen der Wehrmacht

Post by Bernd R » 16 Jul 2009 14:00

Yep. arrived, thanks ! Let's see if a decent 2nd round review of one of the original and key sections - Panzertruppen - will bring an improvement and "finetuning" as well as the clarifitcation of discrepancies the next weeks. Still some gaps there, too.

Meanwhile I go on with more add&corr and new stuff to downsize my files and to enable more input on that when on the list once.

Speaking of Krampnitz.. :) here's a small addition to
Lehrtruppe der Pz.Tr.S / Bataillon Krampnitz
Feb 1944 - Aug 1944 Maj d.R. Konrad von Nagel zu Aichberg
Originally and basically a Lehrtruppe component at Krampnitz, the Btl. was activated when "Walküre" was called. This happened on 21 July 1944 per Tessin. I leave out a further examination of the 20th July plot context On 27 July 44 the Btl. was transferred to the East for frontline service. It was attached to Fsch.-Pz.Div. 1 "Hermann Göring" / AOK 9 and was engaged South of Warzawa. Quote from the thread cited below : Rests of the Btl. were taken out of the line and reformed as Kampfschule Krampnitz continued to serve under Pz Div HG. The matches with Tessin : per 25 Aug 44 re-org and named "Kampfschule Krampnitz". End of story, per Tessin : Per 21 Sep 44 the Btl. was disbanded in/by WK XXI.

Two more apsects :
Quote (refers to Perrigault) : Major von Nagel was KIA in his SPW on 25th August 1944
Volksbund has :
Nachname: v. Nagel z. Aichberg
Vorname: Konrad
Dienstgrad: Major
Geburtsdatum: 06.09.1912
Geburtsort: Harberg
Todes-/Vermisstendatum: 09.08.1944
Todes-/Vermisstenort: nördl.Grabnowola


The OOB should have been :
3x Pz.Gren.Kp , 4. and 5. Kp

So, there was another commanding officer after von Nagel in Aug/Sep 44 ; Fhr. / m.d.F.b.

sources :
Tessin, Verbände und Truppen der Wehrmacht
Volksbund Deutche Kriegsgräberfürsorge, Gräbersuche, online Datenbank
and : http://www.feldgrau.net/forum/viewtopic ... 12&p=95068
(refers to Perrigault, Pz.Lehr) ; I concentrate on the Btl. Krampnitz aspect (there is a mix in that thread, with Aufkl.Lehr.Abt., another unit)

/ Bernd

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Re: Kdre / personnel der Kriegs- und Waffenschulen der Wehrmacht

Post by Bernd R » 16 Jul 2009 14:04

Panzergrenadier-Feldunteroffiziersschule Wildflecken (FUS 4)
??

[source: Tessin] ; maybe hidden behind / identical to one the schools listed already (?)

/ Bernd

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Re: Kdre / personnel der Kriegs- und Waffenschulen der Wehrmacht

Post by Bernd R » 16 Jul 2009 14:09

Scharfschützen-Lehrgang "Hermann Göring", Graudenz
??

HJ-Panzervernichtungs-Lehrgang, Teuplitz-Beelitz
??

[source: Tessin]


Lehrgang für Genesene Offiziere, Gießen
Lehrer : 11/12 / 1943 Hptm Josef Steiof

source : http://mblecker.tripod.com/steiof.htm

/ Bernd

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Re: Kdre / personnel der Kriegs- und Waffenschulen der Wehrmacht

Post by Bernd R » 16 Jul 2009 14:21

HUS XVI , Stargard / Pommern
Jan 1945 moved to Ringsted / Dänemark

source : KTB WB Dänemark


a slight addition (connection) to
Kompanieführerschule Tours (* 21.09.1940 ; etatisiert 01.06.1941)
01.10.1941 : renamed Bataillonsführerschule ; Kp.Fhr-Schule again, 20.12.1941
moved on 23.06.1942 : Tr.Üb.Pl. Camp d'Auvours
moved on 05.08.1942 : Le Mans
named on 21.04.1943
Kompanieführerschule Le Mans / AOK 7
??
goes on with - installed and designated since July 1943 [source: Tessin]
Armee-Waffenschule AOK 7
Kdr
07.08.1943 – 15.07.1944 O / GM (1.4.45) Karl Klockenbring

Not quite sure, if
Waffenschule HGr. C / OB Südwest
Kdr
22.01.1944 - 02.05.1945 O / GM (1.12.44) Richard Kotz
is identical to
Heeres-Waffenschule Forli
1944 , HGr. C
(mentioned in Tessin)

/ Bernd

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Re: Kdre / personnel der Kriegs- und Waffenschulen der Wehrmacht

Post by Bernd R » 16 Jul 2009 14:27

And don't let's forget the obscure units. :) This was mentioned here before. Here is the entire and more precise TESSIN entry :

Minier-Lehrgang z.b.V. / HGr. G
[1. Pionier-Lehr-Kompanie z.b.V. ; 1944/45]

Unknown if this specifically has to do with the old Mineure skills, etc. A story and photograph comes to mind from the American Civil War, how the result of the action looks like in reality.

Best Regards
Bernd

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Re: Kdre / personnel der Kriegs- und Waffenschulen der Wehrmacht

Post by Bernd R » 26 Jul 2009 14:26

RE: Panzertruppenschule II Krampnitz

As said, some sort of "finetuning", starting with the main block, the school commanders. Based on a repeated evaluation of Helmut Ritgen, Die Schulen der Panzertruppen des Heeres 1918 bis zum Aufbau der Bundeswehr, Celle 1992 and several other references I would suggest to exchange
...
15.05.1943 - 15.01.1944 O / GM (1.11.43) Oswin Grolig
15.01.1944 - 24.07.1944 O Walter Gorn
Juli 1944 - Sept 1944 O Wolfgang Glaesemer
...
with - draft - ( = edited version when we are through)

15.05.1943 - Ende Dez 1943 or 01. or 09. or 15. or 16. 01.1944 O / GM (1.11.43) Oswin Grolig
12/1943 O Kieler [m.d.F.b.]
01. or 15. 01.1944 - 14.07.1944 O Walter Gorn
15.07.1944 - 30.09.1944 O Wolfgang Glaesemer


I try to not forget a detail but also try to keep it concentrated. If something is missed, please add.

1) Oswin Grolig
15.05.1943 - Ende Dez 1943 or 01. or 09. or 15. or 16. 01.1944 O / GM (1.11.43) Oswin Grolig
towards the end of Dec 43 (second half of the month) Oberst Grolig had the task to form the Stab Panzerlehr-Division out of the Krampnitz school Kommandostab (+ x, as always). The official end date of his command and the actual leaving from Krampnitz appears in a way open to me.
Here GM Oswin Grolig
Jeff wrote [Source: NARA A3356 R242] :
According to Beurteilung in Grolig's personnel file he was:

16.02.42 - 14.12.42 Kdr. 1 Sch./PG Brigade
15.12.42 - 15.05.43 Fhr. Resv.
16.05.43 - 09.01.44 Pz.Tr.Schule II Krampnitz
10.01.44 - heute(09.03.44) stellv.Fhr. 21 Pz.Div.
Jan wrote [source: Mehner] :
15.01.1944-08.03.1944 Kdr. 21.Pz.Div.
Charles wrote [source: "The Panzertruppen" of François De Lannoy (they can be found on the most websites too...)]
21. Pz.Div.

Generalleutnant Oswin Grolig - stellv. Div.Führ. - 15.I.1944 - 08.III.1944
I wrote :
per 21. Panzer-Division (Neu) pdf by Veit Scherzer :
GM Oswin Grolig , Divisionsführer , 15.01. - 08.03.1944 ; succeeding Feuchtinger, succeeded by GL Franz Westhoven
and
If I'm correct the Pz.Lehr.Div. formation process time period matches with the facts known ; Pz.Lehr.Div. officiall formation date 10 Jan 1944, with GL Fritz Bayerlein the first cdr. then.
So, what can be concluded from the material available IMO is :
- he left K. in Dec in reality, but this doesn't mark the official end of his command (usual process)
- the question when exactly he took over command of 21. PD (Neu) might be a bit academic, it is either 15 Jan 44 (to the latest) or per 10 Jan in fact like his "Beurteilung" says. On the other hand this is important also to mark the end date of his Krampnitz command (= in fact was the formation of Pz.Lehr). What appears evident to me is that with Bayerlein overtaking Pz.Lehr per 10 Jan 44 this marks the end of Groligs tasks there (therefore my former remark above). Results in a gap 10. - 15. Jan. Makes his "Beurteilung" correct ! :idea: Or results in that he was Fhr.Res. for a short time. And, that's the string - this should mark the latest date of being Kdr. Krampnitz. :idea:

So, summary and open questions :
The dates can be solved and determined finally with an order or personal accounts only. Beside the "Beurteilung" I see no primary source here ! Ritgen is unclear.
Nice question : write Jan 44 and forget all this ? :) would be the deal to "hide" this in a book.


2) Oberst Kieler
his entry depends on Grolig and Gorn.
Question : who is this man ? I even don't find a first name.


3) Walter Gorn
01. or 15. 01.1944 - 14.07.1944 O Walter Gorn
the start date is related to Grolig (see above).
According to Ritgen Oberst Gorn was appointed Kdr. 561. VGD per 14 July 1944 and was ordered to leave Krampnitz immediately. Not even a say good-by was possible.


4) Wolfgang Glaesemer
15.07.1944 - 30.09.1944 O Wolfgang Glaesemer
On 15 July 1944 O Glaesemer received the order to take over K. with effect immediately. btw. he held the post of Stellvertreter des Kommandeurs der Schulen der Panzertruppen at that time, we could add that. The end date 30.09.1944 marks the end of Krampnitz based on the fact that the merging at Bergen was finished per 1 Oct 44.
this is explained with (on the master list) :
remark :
after the moving from Krampnitz to Bergen in july/august 1944 there was a kind of independence of the former Krampnitz school, now Panzertruppenschule II, Bergen, with the Lehrgruppen für Panzergrenadiere und Panzeraufklärer under the command of Oberst Glaesemer during the time period july – oct 1944 .

/ Bernd

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Re: Kdre / personnel der Kriegs- und Waffenschulen der Wehrmacht

Post by Stauffenberg II » 08 Aug 2009 16:24

An amendment for page 1:

Gebirgs-Schießschule [für Gebirgsjäger / Jägertruppen] [Solbad] Hall / Tirol
Kdr

?? - Arnold Oberst (I) 1.04.1942 (290)


It was the Saxonian Oberst Martin Arnold.

Regards!
Jürgen

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Re: Kdre / personnel der Kriegs- und Waffenschulen der Wehrmacht

Post by Bernd R » 11 Aug 2009 17:05

Added, thanks Jürgen !

- new -
Infanterie-Lehr-Regiment (Döberitz)
7. (MG[s.]motZ) / Inf.Lehr.Rgt. = Fla-Lehr-Kp. ; = nucleus of the Heeres-Fla
Chef : 00.00.1935 Hptm Hans von der Mosel

source : Freter, Fla nach vorn (see also the thread GM Hans von der Mosel)

/ Bernd

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Re:

Post by Heimatschuss » 19 Aug 2009 17:19

Hello Bernd,
Bernd R wrote:XVII) Wehrkreis- Schulen und Lehrgänge

Wehrkreis-Reit- und Fahrschulen / Wehrkreisremonteschulen


XIII , Bamberg (later (?) moved to Grafenwöhr)
01.04.1937 - 10.02.1942 O (E) / act. 1.6.41 / GM (1.8.41) Alex Goeschen
I don't think the Bamberg school was moved to Grafenwöhr. It was in Bamberg till early April 1945 and then just passed through the Grafenwöhr area briefly on its retreat south-east.

Here's a time scale of the retreat I've made up from the account that horse-breaker Annegrete Schwenck gave of her time at the school.

07.04.1945: early morning departure from Bamberg, to Burgellern castle near Scheßlitz
08.04.1945: Burgellern castle near Scheßlitz
09.04.1945: Burgellern castle near Scheßlitz
10.04.1945: Burgellern castle near Scheßlitz
11.04.1945: Burgellern castle near Scheßlitz, after nightfall ride to a small village near Bayreuth
12.04.1945: small village near Bayreuth, after nightfall ride to 'Altmannsreuth/Engelmannsreuth'. Engelmannsreuth is clear, 'Altmannsreuth' could be the neighbouring hamlet Altencreußen.
13.04.1945: Engelmannsreuth, in the evening flight to 'Seiboldsrecht' near Grafenwöhr, probably Seiboldsricht
14.04.1945: Seiboldsricht, in the evening ride to 'Mühlhof/Alpendorf'
15.04.1945: 'Mühlhof/Alpendorf' *
16.04.1945: 'Mühlhof/Alpendorf', in the evening ride to 'Döswig', probably Döswitz
17.04.1945: Döswitz, in the evening ride to Pösing via 'Neuendorf', probably Neunburg im Wald
18.04.1945: Pösing
19.04.1945: Pösing, in the evening ride to 'Regelmais', i.e. Regelsmais via Michelsneukirchen.
20.04.1945: Regelsmais, in the evening ride to the Danube ferry at 'Felling', i.e. Pfelling, then a few more kilometers on the southern bank.
21.04.1945: unknown village, in the evening ride to Hailing

Unclear time, once Schwenck was in 'Niedersinzing' to barter bacon for a pilot overall. Probably Niedersunzing north of Hailing.

01.05.1945: in the evening ride to 'Wald-Grünbach', probably the Wald-Farm near Grünbach south of Mühldorf am Inn.
02.05.1945: Grünbach-Wald, in the evening ride to 'Kienberg-Grafing', probably Kienberg-Gauing.
03.05.1945: Kienberg-Gauing, in the evening ride to Tettenhausen (Waginger See)
04.05. or 05.05.1945 remnants of the school captured at Tettenhausen.

*) 'Mühlhof/Alpendorf' not identified. No identical or similar place names in the area between Seiboldsricht and Döswitz. Perhaps the time order is scrambled and the remount school was first in Döswitz and then the next night in Altendorf-Murglhof east of Nabburg. That would result in daily traveling distances more likely. A day of rest after reaching the cover of the Bayerischer Wald is also more likely than one in open terrain before reaching security.

References:
Annegrete Schwenck
Von zu Hause fort und wieder zurück. Tagebuchaufzeichnungen von Annegrete Schwenck.
Books on Demand, Norderstedt, 2009
pp. 17 - 33

Best regards
Torsten

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