The Graf Strachwitz's zaga.

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tigre
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The Graf Strachwitz's zaga.

Post by tigre » 30 Mar 2008 16:20

Hello to all people :D . I've found this sample in an ePier auction some time ago, the panzer 11's five. The panzer's commander was Lt. Graf Hyacinth St(rachwitz?). Anyone has more info on him?.

Source: SIGNAL WAR MAGAZINE 1942 / NR.15 - Lot #:1395076

Thanks in advance and regards. Raúl M 8-) .
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Dieter Zinke
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Re: The Graf Strachwitz's zaga.

Post by Dieter Zinke » 30 Mar 2008 16:40

Dear tigre,

only to avoid misunderstandings :|
Hyacinth Graf Strachwitz is in the following pic

Dieter Z.
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tigre
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Re: The Graf Strachwitz's zaga.

Post by tigre » 30 Mar 2008 17:04

Hello Dieter and thanks for joining; I'm aware of who the "Panzergraf" was, but in that Signal edition was shown the commander of the panzer 11 and the caption says "Der Kommandant - Lt Graf Hyacinth St". So as you right pointed me out a photo of the well known panzergraf accompanied the before mentioned article, therefore I asume this leutnant was a relative. I could not find the answer yet. Cheers. Raúl M 8-)

PS: may be some collector who owns that Signal magazine can solve this...........

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Re: The Graf Strachwitz's zaga.

Post by Doktor Krollspell » 30 Mar 2008 18:00

Hello Gentlemen!

There was a Hyazinth Graf Strachwitz who recieved the DKiG on 29.05.1943 as an Oberleutnant while commanding 4./Pz.Rgt. 15. Source: Patzwall & Scherzer (2001). This must surely be the young officer from the Signal article. Does anyone know of how he's related to the Great Panzergraf?


Regards,

Krollspell

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tigre
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Re: The Graf Strachwitz's zaga.

Post by tigre » 30 Mar 2008 21:11

Thanks for joining Doktor :D ; at least something on this elusive tank commander. The chase goes on. Cheers. Raúl M 8-)

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Bernd R
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Re: The Graf Strachwitz's zaga.

Post by Bernd R » 31 Mar 2008 10:39

Hm :? , something is very irritating here ! And really interesting.
I see two aspects :
1) reliability and complete content of the Signal article
2) what's the real truth of a German Cross in Gold award on 29.05.1943 to a "Hyazinth Graf Strachwitz" ?

Doktor, nearing to an issue from the "awards" side sometimes can be very helpful and I like it very much - maybe here it could be one clue, too.

So, firstly, the owner of Groß-Stein, that is mostly the first son of the Silesian Counts always was named "Hyazinth" after the "heilige Hyazinth"
http://www.strachwitz.net/content/view/133/30/
So, the spelling with "c" in Signal is inaccurate, but I don't want to overstress this. What is more important is the fact that the young Panzer-Kommandant should be a first son of the younger Strachwitz generation.
Of note : when in Bundeswehr service I had a comrade who was a "Freiherr von Strachwitz" ; completely other line beside the Counts. Possible therefore that the Panzer-Kommandant is not related, at least not quite near to the "Panzer-Graf".

Secondly,
Hyazinth Graf Strachwitz who recieved the DKiG on 29.05.1943 as an Oberleutnant while commanding 4./Pz.Rgt. 15
is indeed listed like that in the "awardholders / unit".

Now, the hard nut : are we aware that the "Panzer-Graf" was awarded the German Cross in Gold exactly on the same date - 29.05.1943 !!
And what I really would like to know - holding what position ??
(don't have Fraschka or Thomas/Lenfeld at hand at the moment)
Oberst d.R. Hyazinth Graf Strachwitz received the swords on 28.02.1943 as Kdr Pz.Rgt. "GD".
He is not listed with a DKiG award in the list of Pz.Gren.Div. "GD", as we obviously had no entry in the sources used (or is it indeed the entry in question here !!??)
His career by Dieter :
http://forum.panzer-archiv.de/viewtopic ... 01f9ddf6db

What appears on www2-awards should be wrong (simultaneously Oberleutnant and Oberst !) :
http://www.ww2awards.com/person/222


So, nice chase :)
Who is the Oberleutnant and what about the German Cross in Gold for the "Panzer-Graf" ?

regards, Bernd

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Re: The Graf Strachwitz's zaga.

Post by Jan-Hendrik » 31 Mar 2008 10:52

In Scherzer's PDF on 11.PD he is also listed als Oberleutnant Hayzinth Graf Strachwitz. 4./PR 15 :wink:

Jan-Hendrik

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Re: The Graf Strachwitz's zaga.

Post by Doktor Krollspell » 31 Mar 2008 16:39

Hello again Gentlemen!

Intriguing indeed! In Veit Scherzer's "Ritterkreuzträger 1939-1945" (2005), the Panzer-Graf is listed as having recieved the DKiG on 29.05.1943. My first thought is how likely it was that someone as highly decorated as a Schwertenträger (the Panzer-Graf on 28.02.1943) would later recieve such a "lower" award? I think (don't remember any names though) that there are several RKT that were awarded with the DKiG after they had recieved the RK but a Schwertenträger? Are there any known cases? Even for an Eichenlaubträger to later recieve the DKiG?

Btw, are there any known photographs of der Panzer-Graf actually sporting a DKiG on his uniform? I mean, photos of him from late 1943 and onwards should prove if he did, or did not recieve the DKiG...


Regards,

Krollspell

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Bernd R
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Re: The Graf Strachwitz's zaga.

Post by Bernd R » 31 Mar 2008 18:01

Looked at 6 photos of him in my personal database. Googled another 5+. No DKiG to see. He never shows his right side.. ; from the point of view of photographing it's logical that the left side of the Panzer jacket is prefered showing the EK with Spange and the Panzerkampfabzeichen.

RE: "lower" award after a "higher" one. Good point. Don't know a case of an Oakleaves or Swords Holder right now.

btw, this nobility site http://home.foni.net/~adelsforschung1/dbar85.htm
is listing 16 "Strachwitz" ; one of them is the "Panzergraf"
Strachwitz v. Groß-Zauche und Camminetz, Hyazinth Graf, Genltn (20.Jh.)
the only one who could be identical with the Oberleutnant in question, is :
Strachwitz, Hyazinth Graf, Dienstdaten von 1938 als SS-Offizier
regards, Bernd

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Dieter Zinke
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BArch Koblenz "Neu importierte Bilder" (01.04.08)

Post by Dieter Zinke » 01 Apr 2008 16:25

Signatur: Bild 183-J22216
Originaltitel: An der Sowjetfront:
Oberst [Hyazinth] Graf von Strachwitz, Kommandeur des Panzerregiments "Großdeutschland" beim Vortrag [zu den Kämpfen um Borisowka, nordwestlich von Charkow]; PK-Aufnahme: Kriegsberichter Broenner; Mai 1943
http://www.bild.bundesarchiv.de/archive ... 47/?search

Dieter Z.
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tigre
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Re: The Graf Strachwitz's zaga.

Post by tigre » 01 Apr 2008 21:57

Thank you very much to all for joining and for those interesting posts also. Cheers. Raúl M 8-)

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Dieter Zinke
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Re: The Graf Strachwitz's zaga.

Post by Dieter Zinke » 02 Apr 2008 09:26

...and the next pic
Bild 101I-219-0579A-03A

Dieter Z.
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Spirow Ewes
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Re: The Graf Strachwitz's zaga.

Post by Spirow Ewes » 02 Apr 2008 14:12

Doktor Krollspell wrote:Even for an Eichenlaubträger to later recieve the DKiG?
One thing I can assure you: I have two color portraits of him after receving the Eichenlaub in November 1942, and there's no DKiG there.

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Re: The Graf Strachwitz's zaga.

Post by Doktor Krollspell » 02 Apr 2008 16:39

Hello Spyro et al!

So Veit Scherzer has apparently made a mistake in his "Ritterkreuzträger 1939-1945" (2005) pinning the DKiG with the award date 29.05.1943 on the Panzer-Graf and Brilliantenträger Hyazinth... He must have mixed him up with this mysterious junior officer named Hyazinth Graf Strachwitz!? And as you I've never ever seen a photograph of the Panzer-Graf with a DKiG.


Regards,

Krollspell

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Bernd R
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Re: The Graf Strachwitz's zaga.

Post by Bernd R » 02 Apr 2008 17:29

Hello Doktor Krollspell and all,

I support the thesis that it's not the Brillantenträger Hyazinth who received the DKiG !
(though I'm awaiting a research result of a friend who will look up several literature)

As it's called a "zaga" let me add this link. Could be regarded as a quite good text with many aspects - and it provides a not too short bibliography !
http://www.blowtorchscenarios.com/The%2 ... graphy.htm
It is to notice that
1) the several online references always list and repeat the DkiG in the short summary lines
2) never in a text (or as an evidence in a photo) the DKiG award is refered to

As said there in the article..
[...] And yet to a surprising degree he remains a man of mystery ...
So, the matter seems to remain as "the mysterious junior officer case" !?

Apparently Gen.Lt d.R. Graf Strachwitz did have two sons, both lost their lives in WW2 (?).
Could be a trace. The first born should bear the name "Hyazinth / Hyacinth".
Anything known about them ?

regards, Bernd

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