GM Oswin Grolig

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Jan-Hendrik
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GM Oswin Grolig

Post by Jan-Hendrik » 22 Dec 2008 10:47

ABR entry

Acccoring to the Kriegsrangliste of I.Kav.Korps

GM Grolig was KG of Gen.Kdo. LXXVIII.A.K. z.b.V. from 01.11.1943 till 01.06.1944 and took over 25.Pz.Div. on 15.06.1944!

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Re: GM Oswin Grolig

Post by JC » 22 Dec 2008 15:23

Hi J-H,

According to Beurteilung in Grolig's personnel file he was:

16.02.42 - 14.12.42 Kdr. 1 Sch./PG Brigade
15.12.42 - 15.05.43 Fhr. Resv.
16.05.43 - 09.01.44 Pz.Tr.Schule II Krampnitz
10.01.44 - heute(09.03.44) stellv.Fhr. 21 Pz.Div.

BR........Jeff

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Endzeit Jan
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Re: GM Oswin Grolig

Post by Endzeit Jan » 22 Dec 2008 21:57

Hi
15.01.1944-08.03.1944 Kdr. 21.Pz.Div.
01.06.1944-10.07.1944 Kdr. 25.Pz.Div.
??.07.1944-18.08.1944 Kdr. 25.Pz.Div.

Jan

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Re: GM Oswin Grolig

Post by Jan-Hendrik » 22 Dec 2008 22:11

Jungs, dat geht gar nicht!

Source: T314R25!

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JC
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Re: GM Oswin Grolig

Post by JC » 22 Dec 2008 22:29

JC wrote:16.02.42 - 14.12.42 Kdr. 1 Sch./PG Brigade
15.12.42 - 15.05.43 Fhr. Resv.
16.05.43 - 09.01.44 Pz.Tr.Schule II Krampnitz
10.01.44 - heute(09.03.44) stellv.Fhr. 21 Pz.Div.


Source: NARA A3356 R242 :)

BR............Jeff

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Bernd R
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Re: GM Oswin Grolig

Post by Bernd R » 23 Dec 2008 10:09

Kommandeur Panzertruppenschule II Krampnitz
15.05.1943 - 15.01.1944 O / GM (1.11.43) Oswin Grolig

source : ABR schools sticky :)

Bei vielen officer Bios geht so vieles nicht ! (sorry, one remark free, it's Christmas time).

Well, in short terms, more than 60 years after the time period to cover and with all the new material available both from East and West (archives), it would be time for a new Keilig or a similar work. One of the hardest things an author or a team can try to achieve I think.

Status quo is brutal step-by-step work. Proving one command wrong don't automatically allow to say another command is correct in this process, etc. So, best method is to fix very secure results and to look for results around those Isles of 100%.

Some words in general I wanted to state as we have seen difficulties in this field so often in the past.

Best regards
Bernd

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Re: GM Oswin Grolig

Post by Jan-Hendrik » 24 Dec 2008 10:09

I totally agree with you, dear Bernd!

Now we have two contradicting primary sources, but my experience tends rather to trust unit KTBs than HPA files :wink:

A merry Christmas to all fellow ABR researchers!

Jan-Hendrik an Nicole from the Böhmerwald :D

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Bernd R
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Re: GM Oswin Grolig

Post by Bernd R » 24 Dec 2008 12:13

I started to look for the Gen.Kdo. LXXVIII. AK z.b.V. (78). Per Tessin this Korps was formed on 6 March 1944 in WK VIII. In one of the several entries (there are many smaller "named" units under command of this Korps with HGr. Südukraine in april 44) there is mentioned "KTB Ia , from 6 March - .." . So, one question is if Tessin is wrong here.
One hypothesis I have is that the HPA had a better overview on the career/files of an officer than a Korps. On the other hand the chance to procude typos is equal for both.
Another hypothesis could be that this Korps existed as a "Schatten-Verband" only, planned/prepared, but only on paper until March 1944.
I would be of help if the Korps appears in any Kriegsgliederung or similar record prior to March 1944. Was unable to find it.

Bernd

PS: Böhmerwald, puh man, isn't it cold enough at home !? :) Merry Christmas to you both ! :D

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Re: GM Oswin Grolig

Post by Jan-Hendrik » 24 Dec 2008 13:35

Too warm here, too :wink:

Well, HPA for myself too often just took the written orders, but not the effective dates of command. For the Korps itself it seems I have to take a deeper look into the Korps' KTB and the OKH files when I am back home :wink:

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Re: GM Oswin Grolig

Post by JC » 24 Dec 2008 14:26

No Difficulties here!

Merry Christmas to all

Jeff

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Re: GM Oswin Grolig

Post by Jan-Hendrik » 25 Dec 2008 10:36

I have openend a thread concerning the development of this Generalkommando at PA :wink:

Jan-Hendrik

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Re: GM Oswin Grolig

Post by Charles Steiner » 25 Dec 2008 11:59

A merry Christmas to you all from Belgium. May this year be a very fruitfull year for you researchers !!!

To make it even more difficult... these are the dates, I found in "The Panzertruppen" of François De Lannoy (they can be found on the most websites too...), which seem to indicate that Grolig is not the only officer, where the command dates do not follow "fluentlly"...

21. Pz.Div.

Generalleutnant Oswin Grolig - stellv. Div.Führ. - 15.I.1944 - 08.III.1944
Generalleutnant Franz Westhoven - 08.III.1944 - 08.V.1944

2 Pz.Div.

Generalleutnant Franz Westhoven - 05.V.1944 - 27.V.1944

There seems to be an overlapping in time... perhaps, he had officially takken command, yet had not arrived at the division ????

Cheers,

Charles Steiner

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Re: GM Oswin Grolig

Post by Endzeit Jan » 26 Dec 2008 10:55

Hi
Grolig was KG from LXXVIII.AK z.b.V.
??.03.1944-25.05.1944 then Kav.Korps

But who led then the Kav.K?

Jan

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Re: GM Oswin Grolig

Post by Jan-Hendrik » 26 Dec 2008 12:26

The mentioned Kriegsrangliste can be found here :wink:

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Bernd R
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Re: GM Oswin Grolig

Post by Bernd R » 26 Dec 2008 13:03

Hi Jan-Hendrik and all,

in addition to the material posted already (HPA file by JC especially) and in connection to material known otherwise I think the career data of Grolig can be regarded as solid up to March 1944 at least. My result concerning the Korps question is
- GM Oswin Grolig took over command of the newly formed LXXVIII. AK z.b.V. in early March 1944 (6th or 8th) ; the Korps didn't exist before ; he was involved in the transformation of the Korps staff into the new Kav.Korps, with finally General der Kavallerie Gustav Harteneck taking over command at the end of this process in May/(June) 1944

Let me summarize - and add new arguments ; in total there are four minimum, which would have to be rejected as wrong if the Korps command should be correct - what appears to be solid :

1) Per Tessin this Korps was formed on 6 March 1944 in WK VIII. In one of the several entries (there are many smaller "named" units under command of this Korps with HGr. Südukraine in april 44) there is mentioned "KTB Ia , from 6 March - .." . So, one question is if Tessin is wrong here.

2) Kommandeur Panzertruppenschule II Krampnitz
15.05.1943 - 15.01.1944 O / GM (1.11.43) Oswin Grolig
source : ABR schools sticky

3) per 21. Panzer-Division (Neu) pdf by Veit Scherzer :
GM Oswin Grolig , Divisionsführer , 15.01. - 08.03.1944 ; succeeding Feuchtinger, succeeded by GL Franz Westhoven

4) per "...und die Aufklärer sind immer dabei - Zur Geschichte der deutschen Panzeraufklärungstruppe, Hrsg. Cord Schwier, Munster 2001 (1st ed.), page 103 :
"[Grolig]...taking over the school command [Schule der Schnellen Truppen Krampnitz] in May 1943 from GM von Saucken..
end of Dec 43 already he was given the order/task to establish the staff of the new Panzer-Lehr-Division in France out of the Krampnitz school Kommandostab ; with him the Lehr.Rgt. left the school to be restructured PGLR 902..
until the arrival of the new school cdr., Oberst Gorn, Oberst Kieler was leading the school."

(btw., the short time Führung by O Kieler wasn't handled in the schools sticky so far ; don't know who he is at the moment)

If I'm correct the Pz.Lehr.Div. formation process time period matches with the facts known ; Pz.Lehr.Div. officiall formation date 10 Jan 1944, with GL Fritz Bayerlein the first cdr. then.

Thanks Jan-Hendrik for linking the Kriegsrangliste, that's what I would have done, too.
Well, my strongest argument maybe : the column "Patent oder Tag der Ernennung" with the date "1.11.1943" for Grolig is to read
-> promotion to Generalmajor on 1.11.43 in my understanding (matches, is correct).
This alone would solve the puzzle to a great extent. Am I badly wrong here ?

Otherwise (don't think so) this sole Kriegsrangliste entry would be in need to have the power to tear down all the arguments above !

Best regards
Bernd

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