Josef "Sepp" Dorsch and the Ulrichsberg Veteran Meeting

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history1
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Josef "Sepp" Dorsch and the Ulrichsberg Veteran Meeting

Post by history1 » 14 Jun 2010 09:09

[Split from "Die Bandenkämpfer - Holders of Bandenkampfabzeichen"]
Hecht wrote:SS-Unterscharführer, Josef "Sepp" Dorsch, 07\01\1921, SS-Jäger-Bat. 501, BKA(b?): (still alive, joined the Bundeswehr after the war. Source: picture of him wearing the badge at the Ulrichsberg Veteran Meeting in 2008, Thanks to Arminiusder Cherusker1 for additional infos about unit and rank)
Image
And still a Nazi. As reservist he break german law how we see in the image, it´s not allowed him to salute AFAIK.
Can any german user help with more info about the wear of orders in foreign countries? This link don´t help sadly:
http://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/bunde ... gesamt.pdf

[Title changed to reflect the change of focus in the split thread /Marcus]

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Hecht
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Re: Josef "Sepp" Dorsch breaking the law with his awards?

Post by Hecht » 21 Jun 2010 13:20

History 1, what do you mean?
How did he break the laws?

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Re: Die Bandenkämpfer - Holders of Bandenkampfabzeichen

Post by history1 » 22 Jun 2010 11:02

Hecht wrote:History 1, what do you mean?
How did he break the laws?
Just a quick babelfish - translation:
Badges Act § 1
1. Badges, uniforms or uniform parts of a banned organization in Austria may not yet worn in public on display, are displayed or distributed. As a badge and emblems, symbols and signs are to be considered.
2. The prohibition of subsection 1 extends to badges, uniforms and uniform parts that are needed because of their similarity and their obvious purpose to replace the one mentioned in para 1 badges, uniforms or uniform parts.
3. Orders and decorations, the one in the para 1 or para Two have mentioned emblems may be worn in public nor shown to the public.

Source (in german):
http://www.8ung.at/smediation/recht/verbotsg.htm
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abzeicheng ... _Abzeichen

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Hecht
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Re: Josef "Sepp" Dorsch breaking the law with his awards?

Post by Hecht » 22 Jun 2010 19:20

history1 wrote:
Hecht wrote:History 1, what do you mean?
How did he break the laws?
Just a quick babelfish - translation:
Badges Act § 1
1. Badges, uniforms or uniform parts of a banned organization in Austria may not yet worn in public on display, are displayed or distributed. As a badge and emblems, symbols and signs are to be considered.
2. The prohibition of subsection 1 extends to badges, uniforms and uniform parts that are needed because of their similarity and their obvious purpose to replace the one mentioned in para 1 badges, uniforms or uniform parts.
3. Orders and decorations, the one in the para 1 or para Two have mentioned emblems may be worn in public nor shown to the public.

Source (in german):
http://www.8ung.at/smediation/recht/verbotsg.htm
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abzeicheng ... _Abzeichen
History, these are denazified badges .57, they are actually badges instituited by the German Governament after 1945 and recognized by the Bundesheer, so they are totally legal.

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Re: Josef "Sepp" Dorsch breaking the law with his awards?

Post by history1 » 22 Jun 2010 19:56

Hecht wrote: History, these are denazified badges .57, they are actually badges instituited by the German Governament after 1945 and recognized by the Bundesheer, so they are totally legal.
That´s totaly wrong.
http://www.ris.bka.gv.at/GeltendeFassun ... r=10005262
http://www.bundesheer.at/abzeichen/pdf/ ... l_deko.pdf
On this website of our army (Bundesheer) you can see what you can wear:
http://www.bundesheer.at/abzeichen/orde ... 0#pics_top
Not allowed are any badges or medals before 1945.

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Hecht
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Re: Josef "Sepp" Dorsch breaking the law with his awards?

Post by Hecht » 22 Jun 2010 20:44

Seems to me you did not catch that Dorsch is a GERMAN NATIONAL and a german WWII veteran, and he is wearing .57 denaz. badges.
If I'm not wrong 57 awards were published on the Bundesheer Gazzette and were, and I think still are, totally legit.
So, he is not there as a Bundesheer member, but as a WWII veteran.
And anyway we are NOT talking about the Austrian Bundesheer, but about German Bundesheer.

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Marcus
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Re: Josef "Sepp" Dorsch breaking the law with his awards?

Post by Marcus » 22 Jun 2010 20:50

As far as I know no 57 version of the antipartisan badge was issued so at least that one would not be "totally legit".

/Marcus

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Hecht
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Re: Josef "Sepp" Dorsch breaking the law with his awards?

Post by Hecht » 22 Jun 2010 21:19

Marcus,

This is not correct.

Bandenkampfabzeichen 57 version was issued by the German Government.
Institution and picture of that 57 version can be found on the Bundesanzeiger n.41 of 28.02.1958.
If I recall correctly, total numbers of BKA awarded during the war were suggested by the number of the 57 version badges expected to be issued by Bundeswehr/German Government.

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Re: Josef "Sepp" Dorsch breaking the law with his awards?

Post by history1 » 23 Jun 2010 08:33

Hecht wrote:Seems to me you did not catch that Dorsch is a GERMAN NATIONAL and a german WWII veteran, and he is wearing .57 denaz. badges.
Yes, a german national who take part on a nazi - memorial in Austria! So Austrian Law is to apply.
http://www.austriantimes.at/news/Genera ... rg_meeting
If I'm not wrong 57 awards were published on the Bundesheer Gazzette and were, and I think still are, totally legit.
Hecht wrote:So, he is not there as a Bundesheer member, but as a WWII veteran.
Sure.
Hecht wrote:And anyway we are NOT talking about the Austrian Bundesheer, but about German Bundesheer.
We are talking about the Austrian Bundesheer as the Germans call their army Bundeswehr!
8-)

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Hecht
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Re: Josef "Sepp" Dorsch breaking the law with his awards?

Post by Hecht » 23 Jun 2010 09:21

history1 wrote:
Hecht wrote:Seems to me you did not catch that Dorsch is a GERMAN NATIONAL and a german WWII veteran, and he is wearing .57 denaz. badges.
Yes, a german national who take part on a nazi - memorial in Austria! So Austrian Law is to apply.
http://www.austriantimes.at/news/Genera ... rg_meeting
If I'm not wrong 57 awards were published on the Bundesheer Gazzette and were, and I think still are, totally legit.
Hecht wrote:So, he is not there as a Bundesheer member, but as a WWII veteran.
Sure.
Hecht wrote:And anyway we are NOT talking about the Austrian Bundesheer, but about German Bundesheer.
We are talking about the Austrian Bundesheer as the Germans call their army Bundeswehr!
8-)
Seems to me you should research better on the subject.

The Ulrichsberg Meeting is not a "Nazi" meeting, is a WWII veterans meeting: usually the Major of Klagenfurt, Austrian Government Personalities and the Austrian Bundesheer attend the event.
Due to that, it's a totally legal and legit meeting.
Please produce any Austrian Police/Carinthian Government source about the meeting being "Nazi" and then "Banned" and sources about Dorsch breaking the laws wearing his legit 57 version awards.
You may like or not german WWII veterans, but this don't make them outlaws just because they wear awards issued by their German Government.

No, again, we are not talking about the post-45 Austrian Army, we are talking about the post-45 German Army.
Austrian Army have nothing to do with Mr.Dorsch, since he was a german WWII veteran and if I recall correctly a post-war member of the German Army.

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Re: Josef "Sepp" Dorsch and the Ulrichsberg Veteran Meeting

Post by Dieter Zinke » 23 Jun 2010 10:23

Hecht wrote:The Ulrichsberg Meeting is not a "Nazi" meeting, is a WWII veterans meeting: usually the Major of Klagenfurt, Austrian Government Personalities and the Austrian Bundesheer attend the event.
Due to that, it's a totally legal and legit meeting.
Indeed, you, Hecht, should research better on the subject:

http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ulrichsber ... ergtreffen
http://www.salzburg.com/online/nachrich ... ext=&mode=&
http://search.salzburg.com/articles/1350035
http://search.salzburg.com/articles/1357938
http://kaernten.orf.at/stories/275720/
http://www.hagalil.com/archiv/98/03/ss-himmler.htm
http://u-berg.lnxnt.org/materialien/aufruf_de.pdf
http://aua.blogsport.de/2008/08/26/niko ... wegbeamen/
http://www.oe24.at/oesterreich/politik/ ... 520924.ece
http://www.u-berg.at/texte/kam.htm
http://forum.gaj-ktn.at/viewtopic.php?p ... 301fd1efcc

Let us have the facts speaking for themselves !!
As a point of order I vote for closing the dispute !

Dieter Z.

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Re: Josef "Sepp" Dorsch and the Ulrichsberg Veteran Meeting

Post by Hecht » 23 Jun 2010 11:34

You close the dispute when you have nothing serious to add.
Dieter, I'm bit shocked, you are a very sharp guy and researcher but what you add are just link to newspapers, Wikipedia and others low quality information that I far consider serious sources (You also add the link to U-berg, that's the website of the left extremists that every year try to clash with the people at the meeting, so, far away to be a realiable on this matter as Revisionists for the Holocaust matter for instance).
Then, you consider the Major of Klagenfurt, the Austrian Government and the Austrian Bundesheer "Nazi"?
Presence of some neonazi idiots attending the meeting doesn't make the meeting neonazi itself, otherwise most of the football matches here in Europe would be "nazi" meeting also.

As the forum rules clearly stated, please produce realiable sources that Austrian Polizei and Austrian Government consider this meeting "illegal and nazi" and that Mr. Dorsch is breaking the rules wearing 57 awards.

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Re: Josef "Sepp" Dorsch and the Ulrichsberg Veteran Meeting

Post by Dimitrii » 23 Jun 2010 11:43

Dieter, I am very surprised ... Also I don't like the atmosphere of the accusations against veterans and the Ulrichsbergtreffen here, this seems too much Hexenjagd - a witch hunt. Also I don't like trying to stigmatise other people just by the signs/awards that they wear, I hope you realise this is very wrong? It is true that, in recent years, many neo-nazi idiots are attending the Treffen but that does not take away that this Austrian gathering is in fact the national and fully legal yealy gathering of war veterans supported and organised by the Austrian goverment and army, like Hecht clearly stated, and this for many decades! Also Dieter, the sources that you use are not scientific like the forum of the "Grün-Alternative Jugend" - this is the website of left-extremists - this "green alternative youth" is far, far below any serious standard.

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Re: Josef "Sepp" Dorsch breaking the law with his awards?

Post by Max Williams » 23 Jun 2010 12:29

I hope this thread is not locked. I'm not taking sides, but I think the discussion is very interesting and Hecht has made some valid points. Dieter's links must also be considered, but I agree they cannot be treated as academic sources and are therefore not facts. I'm interested to see how the two differing interpretations of the laws are resolved. Please continue.
Max.

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Re: Josef "Sepp" Dorsch breaking the law with his awards?

Post by Crazy_Ivan » 23 Jun 2010 12:44

I totally agree Max...

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