Ib and Ia/F in Armeen and Heeresgruppen

[Rossano]

Hello all,
In the Armeen and particularly in the H.Gruppen there was 1939-1941 the "Ib" then later the OQu. instead, but in some cases the Ib was still present in 1944 together with the OQu., thus my question : did the Ib exhist 8.39 to 5.45 continously or in some years only ? And in some or all Armeen and H.Gruppen ?
From when did the Ia/F exhist in Armeen and H. Gruppen ? Not in 39/40, from 1941 ? In some or all Armeen/H.Gruppen ?
Thanks, Rossano

[Stauffenberg II]

Hi Rossano!

Ia op or Ia/F was obviously not common in the Poland campaign. Later on I have Tresckow as Ia op/Ia F Heeresgruppe A.

At least from 01.04.1941 on I already have Ia/F (Ia ops) in all Army Groups, for example Staedke (H. Gru. Nord), Reinhard Walter (H. Gru. Mitte) and Hax (H. Gru. Süd), as well as Voß with H. Gru. D (05.1941).

[histan]

Hi Guys

The answer to these questions I think is contained in FMS Study P-139 "The Size and Composition of Divisional and Higher Staffs in the German Army". It is quite large with more than 200 pages.

I believe that Ia/F existed only at Heeresgruppe level

At the start of the war supply matters were managed at Armee level, which had an OQu post. Lower level formations had a Ib post as did Heeresgrupen. Later in the war Heesgruppen had more involvement in supply matters. It is quite complicated but explained in the study.

Rossano, I will send you a copy, and of course to anyone else who might want one.

Regards

John

[Rossano]

Thanks Stauffenberg and John
Ia/F : I have 4 of them in Armeen too (in the 1.Armee even in 1939/40 already)
Ib : I have them in Armeen and H.Gruppen at first in 1939/41 and then again in 1944, so were these posts in 1941 dismissed and then again activated in 1944 or they exhisted during the whole war ?
P.S.: Thanks John, but I don´t need that copy.....

[histan]

Hi Guys

Wegmann and Zweng lists the main staff officers for the Armeen. The posts they list are:

First General Staff Officer Ia
Second General Staff Officer Qu 1
Third General Staff Officer Ic
Fourth General Staff Officer Id
Fifth General Staff Officer Qu 2

With the Chef and the Oberquartiermeister there were 7 General Staff Corps officers on the "Armeestab".

This is consistent with FMS study P-139. I have attached below pages from this to show the Tables of Organisation for an "Armeestab"

Officially there was no Ib and no Ia/F (if there had been then the Qu 2 would have been the Sixth General Staff Officer)

If there was a Ia/F at any time then this would have been a special post created for a specific reason and not part of the normal Armee staff.

The 1a/F did exist at Heeresgruppe level and was in the TOO for 1942 - 1945 (probably created in 1941) - in this TOO the Qu 2 is the Sixth General Staff Officer.

Regards

John

[Rossano]

Hello
I still wonder why in a HGr. there was need of an Ib if there were the OQu., Qu.1 and Qu.2 too. For instance, I´ve an OTL./Ob. v. Kleist 1942/44 reported as Ib HGr. Mitte (although the HGr. 42/44 also had the OQu., Qu.1, Qu.2). If Ib here correct (can You pls. confirm that Bernd v. Kleist really Ib was ?), what was his task differently from the OQu., Qu.1 and Qu.2 ?
Thanks, Rossano

[Stauffenberg II]

Dear all,

I am missing two Ia op (Ia F):

1. I am missing Ia op (Ia F) in Heeresgruppe B from 01.05.1943 (leave Schultze) and 19.07.1944 (arrival v. Kessel), so the Ia op during Overlord.
2. I am missing Ia op (Ia F) in Heeresgruppe A between 20.09.1942 (leave Reissinger) and 24.03.1944 (arrival v. Kessel).

Could anybody quote the missing names so that I can rest well?

[Rossano]

Schultze until 2.43 only.
From 2.43 to 7.44 no Ia/F are listed (or known)

[Dave Danner]

Hello
I still wonder why in a HGr. there was need of an Ib if there were the OQu., Qu. 1 and Qu. 2 too. For instance, I´ve an OTL./Ob. v. Kleist 1942/44 reported as Ib HGr. Mitte (although the HGr. 42/44 also had the OQu., Qu. 1, Qu. 2). If Ib here correct (can You pls. confirm that Bernd v. Kleist really Ib was ?), what was his task differently from the OQu., Qu. 1 and Qu. 2 ?
Thanks, Rossano

Hi Rossano,

According to his personnel file, Berndt v. Kleist was from mobilization 4.Ordonnanzoffizier (O 4) of successively AOK 2, HGr. Nord, HGr. B, and HGr. Mitte, in each case the same command, just renamed. From 01.10.43, he was a Stabsoffizier beim Ia of HGr. Mitte. He lost his left leg due to a bullet to the thigh on 11.11.1914 by Ypres, so he was limited on what assignments he could take.

[Rossano]

Hello Dave
here too many thanks !
Friendly, Rossano

[Rossano]

P.S.: from another source (in the meantime) I have Berndt v. Kleist at the HGr. B from 9.40 (so not at HGr. Nord before).
Also if from mobilization, it must be first at the 8. Armee and then at the 2. Armee from 10.39 to 9.40

[Dave Danner]

His Dienstlaufbahn says AOK 2 on mobilization on 26 August. From returning to active duty in 1934, he had been on the staff of Gruppenkommando 1/Heeresgruppenkommando 1, which became AOK 2, so again only a change on paper. AOK 2 became HGr. Nord on 2.9.39 and HGr. B on 10.10.39. The Beurteilung below omits AOK 2; I suppose because it was only around for a few days.

[Rossano]

Thanks again Dave.
I misunderstood You. You meant "that" AOK.2 (exhisted just a few days end of aug./beg. of sept.39 only). I wrongly thought that You referred to the later AOK.2 (from 10.39, from AOK.8)
Sorry, Rossano

[P. Heijkoop]

Good afternoon!

Interesting discussion about this staff function. Does anybody know what the function/task of the Ia/F and Ia/T are? The AOK’s and Heeresgruppen got an Ia 2 (also called Ia S) after the Polish campaign, but it seems this functioned was abandoned in early 1941 after which the Ia/F and Ia/T positions were established as supporting officers to the Ia who was also (usually?) Leiter der Führungsabteilung. I got both the Ia, Ia/T and Ia/F at the same time in the H.Gr.D. In the Netherlands you find a Ia/T from about 1942 who had task with regard of Territorialaufgaben.

Best regards
Peter