Generals Officers Seniority Dates (RDA)
Re: Generals Officers Seniority Dates (RDA)
The January dates are undisputed, and 1 March seems reasonable to me. But all sources say Fangohr's RDA was 16.03.1945:
This would also put Thoholte's RDA in question.There are times in history when staying neutral means taking sides.
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Re: Generals Officers Seniority Dates (RDA)
Hi,
I also have some open slots. Any taker please?
GL 01.12.1941 (11) ???
GL 01.01.1943 (8) ???
GM 01.08.1940 (5) ???
I also have some open slots. Any taker please?
GL 01.12.1941 (11) ???
GL 01.01.1943 (8) ???
GM 01.08.1940 (5) ???
Re: Generals Officers Seniority Dates (RDA)
GL 01.12.1941 (11) - Walter Schmid-Dankward
GL 01.01.1943 (8) - no idea (can't find one in any DAL)
GM 01.08.1940 (5) - Herbert Osterkamp
GL 01.01.1943 (8) - no idea (can't find one in any DAL)
GM 01.08.1940 (5) - Herbert Osterkamp
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Re: Generals Officers Seniority Dates (RDA)
Thanks,
GM 01.10.1941 (8) & (9)?
GM 01.10.1941 (8) & (9)?
Re: Generals Officers Seniority Dates (RDA)
Again, no entry. There is a possibility that those numbers were intended for Obersten Riemhofer and Deindl, who were next in line but were marked as "fällt aus" in the 1941 DAL instead.
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Re: Generals Officers Seniority Dates (RDA)
Hi all,
does anybody happen to know the RDA of GL Thomale (01.03.1945) and GL Staedke (20.04.1945) meanwhile, as well if Thunert really received a GL 01.05.1945 promotion?
Thanks
Jürgen
does anybody happen to know the RDA of GL Thomale (01.03.1945) and GL Staedke (20.04.1945) meanwhile, as well if Thunert really received a GL 01.05.1945 promotion?
Thanks
Jürgen
Re: Generals Officers Seniority Dates (RDA)
So far, I have not seen any primary source that gives Ordnungsnummern for promotions after 30.01.1945. Herr Montag is no primary source, and I would love to learn from where he took his numbers. In any case, info from the Montag database (mostly posted by user Santiago) has not always been correct.
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Re: Generals Officers Seniority Dates (RDA)
A possible source could be the "Dienstaltersliste der Generale des Heeres: Nachtrag zur letzten amtlichen Dienstaltersliste T vom 1.5.1944 für die Zeit vom 1.5.1944 bis 8.5.1945", Bundesarchiv Koblenz (Zentralnachweisstelle), 1962. Somewhere above (on page 6), Santiago wrote that this 78 page-volume is available at BA-MA under the signature of A VII R 9. As it is a postwar source, it will be missing from NARA. (Maybe this is also Montag's source?) The trouble is, as an early post-war compilation, it will probably contain errors as well (the two different RDAs allegedly given to Crasemann, as quoted by Santiago from this booklet, make no sense at all).
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Re: Generals Officers Seniority Dates (RDA)
Correction: the last batch of promotions with Ordnungsnummern was on 01.03.1945.So far, I have not seen any primary source that gives Ordnungsnummern for promotions after 30.01.1945.
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Re: Generals Officers Seniority Dates (RDA)
Dont tell me that you have it, do you? This would be marvellous...
Re: Generals Officers Seniority Dates (RDA)
I'm not quite sure what you mean with "it". The 01.03.1945 promotions?
Generalmajore
(1) Gustav Dürrstein
(2) Friedrich Werther
(3) Paul Block
(4) Rudolf Petersen
(5) Josef Meuther
(6) Hermann Grothe
(7) Kurt Paape
(8) Hermann Konitzky
These were apparently the last generals that got Ordnungsnummern. The full generals, GL and another bunch of GM promoted to rank from 1 March did not get any.
Generalmajore
(1) Gustav Dürrstein
(2) Friedrich Werther
(3) Paul Block
(4) Rudolf Petersen
(5) Josef Meuther
(6) Hermann Grothe
(7) Kurt Paape
(8) Hermann Konitzky
These were apparently the last generals that got Ordnungsnummern. The full generals, GL and another bunch of GM promoted to rank from 1 March did not get any.
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Re: Generals Officers Seniority Dates (RDA)
From Rudolf Absolom "Dienstaltersliste der Generale des Heeres: Nachtrag zur letzten amtlichen Dienstaltersliste T vom 1.5.1944 für die Zeit vom 1.5.1944 bis 8.5.1945", Bundesarchiv Koblenz (Zentralnachweisstelle), 1962.
Generalmajore
1.3.1945 (1) Gustav Dürrstein
1.3.1945 (2) Friedrich Werther
1.3.1945 (2a) Werner von Boltenstern
1.3.1945 (3) Paul Block
1.3.1945 (4) Rudolf Petersen
1.3.1945 (5) Josef Meuther
1.3.1945 (6) Hermann Grothe
1.3.1945 (7) Kurt Paape
1.3.1945 (8) Hermann Konitzky
1.3.1945 (8a) Ernst Knebel
1.3.1945 (9) ???????
1.3.1945 (10) Claus Kühl
1.3.1945 (10a) Hugo Dempwolff
1.3.1945 (10b) Eugen Kurz
1.3.1945 (11) Erich Geissler
1.3.1945 (11a) Franz Haas
1.3.1945 (12) Barde(bis 1941 Badziura),Konrad
1.3.1945 (13) Hermann Schulte-Heuthaus
1.3.1945 (14) Richard Schmidt
1.3.1945 (15) Alexander Möckel
1.3.1945 (15a) Helmut Laegeler
1.3.1945 (15b) Peter von der Groeben
1.3.1945 (15c) Rudolf Wulf
1.3.1945 (16) Karl Göbel
1.3.1945 (17) Rudolf Demme
1.3.1945 (17a) Burkhart Müller-Hillebrand
1.3.1945 (17b) Meinrad von Lauchert
1.3.1945 (18) Wolf Ewert
Best regards
Santiago
Generalmajore
1.3.1945 (1) Gustav Dürrstein
1.3.1945 (2) Friedrich Werther
1.3.1945 (2a) Werner von Boltenstern
1.3.1945 (3) Paul Block
1.3.1945 (4) Rudolf Petersen
1.3.1945 (5) Josef Meuther
1.3.1945 (6) Hermann Grothe
1.3.1945 (7) Kurt Paape
1.3.1945 (8) Hermann Konitzky
1.3.1945 (8a) Ernst Knebel
1.3.1945 (9) ???????
1.3.1945 (10) Claus Kühl
1.3.1945 (10a) Hugo Dempwolff
1.3.1945 (10b) Eugen Kurz
1.3.1945 (11) Erich Geissler
1.3.1945 (11a) Franz Haas
1.3.1945 (12) Barde(bis 1941 Badziura),Konrad
1.3.1945 (13) Hermann Schulte-Heuthaus
1.3.1945 (14) Richard Schmidt
1.3.1945 (15) Alexander Möckel
1.3.1945 (15a) Helmut Laegeler
1.3.1945 (15b) Peter von der Groeben
1.3.1945 (15c) Rudolf Wulf
1.3.1945 (16) Karl Göbel
1.3.1945 (17) Rudolf Demme
1.3.1945 (17a) Burkhart Müller-Hillebrand
1.3.1945 (17b) Meinrad von Lauchert
1.3.1945 (18) Wolf Ewert
Best regards
Santiago
Re: Generals Officers Seniority Dates (RDA)
Now look here, our old friend Absolon was the author of that booklet as well! The problem is only that in all probability HE himself allocated the missing Ordnungsnummern 20 years later, so there is no way to know whether the HPA would have chosen the same sequence. I guess he just looked up the seniority as Obersten and arranged the officers in that order. I'm not sure why he gave some people letters (a,b,c), maybe because they were promoted later? In any case, all this tastes like hindsight and I would prefer to list those officers as "ohne RDA". For those officers who were promoted along with the canonical eight, it is clear that their Ordungsnummern were deliberately omitted, and I don't believe that say Schulte-Heuthaus would have gotten a RDA of 1 March if the Third Reich hat lasted longer. In April and later, there were no Ordungsnummern at all, maybe because of the increasingly chaotic situation or because someone believed all promotions should be provisional until the Endsieg.
P.S.: Why doesn't Absolon list Gersdorff? I think I read he listed him under April, but the original documents show this is wrong.
P.S.: Why doesn't Absolon list Gersdorff? I think I read he listed him under April, but the original documents show this is wrong.
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Re: Generals Officers Seniority Dates (RDA)
Re: Helmut Bechler
In the HPA appointments list posted by histan on 13 Dec 2015, the date of the list appears to have been changed to 15 Feb 1945. In that document Bechler is listed as having an effective date/RDA of 1 Mar 1945 for his promotion to Generalmajor. On the following day, 16 Feb 1945, HPA put out a new list which has Bechler's effective date/RDA as 30 Jan 1945. Unfortunately, I do not have the mentioned Anlage 1. (see attachment)
In the HPA appointments list posted by histan on 13 Dec 2015, the date of the list appears to have been changed to 15 Feb 1945. In that document Bechler is listed as having an effective date/RDA of 1 Mar 1945 for his promotion to Generalmajor. On the following day, 16 Feb 1945, HPA put out a new list which has Bechler's effective date/RDA as 30 Jan 1945. Unfortunately, I do not have the mentioned Anlage 1. (see attachment)
Re: Generals Officers Seniority Dates (RDA)
You will notice that the Orderanweisung from 16.02.1945 has the handwritten document number 20, while the appointment list dated 15.02.1945 has the document number 25. Logic dictates that document 25 was issued after document 20, notwithstanding the date that may have been added later (or the document may have been backdated). In any event, you will also find that on document 25, Bechler has been crossed out with the handwritten remark "bereits befördert." So we don't really have a contradiction here.
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