German army commanders of WW2

Discussions on the personalities of the Wehrmacht and of the organizations not covered in the other sections. Hosted by Dieter Zinke, askropp and Frech.
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askropp
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Re: German army commanders of WW2

Post by askropp » 25 Feb 2017 17:11

Thanks for the clarification, Dieter. In fact, I took the info on Steiner from your (and Andreas Schulzens) book. I checked where the date of 26.01.1945 comes from. You wrote that Steiner took command of a "Führungsstab" in Stettin on 26.01.1945, and I think I counted this as the beginning of AOK 11 (although still unnamed) when I compiled my list some years ago.
Er ist wieder da. Aber auch dieses Mal wird er nicht siegen!

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Re: German army commanders of WW2

Post by genstab » 26 Feb 2017 09:50

I have no supporting valid source for it, but was Armeeabt. Grasser turned into 11. Armee from 26.11.1944 - 22.01.1945?

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Bill in Cleveland

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Re: German army commanders of WW2

Post by askropp » 26 Feb 2017 12:42

As far as I know, parts of Stab ArmeeAbt Kleffel (formerly Grasser, formerly Narwa) were used for AOK 25.

According to the Karteikarte of Oberst Fritz Estor, he was appointed Chef AOK 11 on 01.02.1945. As Nr. 195/45 only says that AOK 11 took over a Frontabschnitt on 02.02.1945, the staff may already have been in existence in the rear area for some days.
Er ist wieder da. Aber auch dieses Mal wird er nicht siegen!

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Re: German army commanders of WW2

Post by genstab » 27 Feb 2017 01:03

I queried one of the two sources I found on the Internet and he told me Keiiig's Die Generale des Heeres is his source. Sure enough, it's in there- "11. Armee Herbst 44".. So does anyone have Gen. Grasser's Karteikarte or the Army card (if there is such a thing)?

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Re: German army commanders of WW2

Post by askropp » 27 Feb 2017 01:09

Well, we all know that Keilig is full of errors.
Grasser's card says: "03.07.1944 mFb Armeeabteilung Narwa, 01.11.1944 FR OKH, 22.01.1945 KG LXXII. AK".
The AOK 11 card from T-78 R-896 starts with Steiner (mFb 05.02.1945, no mention of him being OB).
Er ist wieder da. Aber auch dieses Mal wird er nicht siegen!

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Re: German army commanders of WW2

Post by genstab » 27 Feb 2017 01:18

Certainly, I know Keilig isn't always accurate due to orders he might have found being cancelled later, but at least there was something there for him to find and reference. I had to ask for an expert who has NARA/BAMA riches. The Army card should be decisive and i thank you for it.

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Bill in Cleveland (snow for a minute but gone again- one month to go)

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Re: German army commanders of WW2

Post by histan » 27 Feb 2017 02:53

The Army card is not decisive - no single source is. They contain a number of

All of the cards were created by clerks transcribing the information on the appointments lists and appointments orders issued by the various desk officers in the HPA. They didn't always receive copies, nor did they always receive copies of orders cancelling appointments. Equally, they didn't receive details of decisions on stand ins or short term changes made at local level (Heeresgruppe).

This card contains some more information:
0047 AOK 11.jpg
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John
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Re: German army commanders of WW2

Post by askropp » 06 Mar 2017 18:12

12. Armee
13.10.1939 – 05.11.1940 Generaloberst (19.07.1940 Generalfeldmarschall) Wilhelm List
05.11.1940 – 21.12.1940 General der Infanterie z.V. Hermann Geyer (mdstvFb)
21.12.1940 – 15.10.1941 Generalfeldmarschall Wilhelm List
15.10.1941 – 26.10.1941 Oberst Hermann Foertsch (mdstvWdGb)
26.10.1941 – 02.07.1942 General der Pioniere Walter Kuntze (mdFb)
02.07.1942 – 31.12.1942 Generaloberst Alexander Löhr (bis 12.07.1942 mdFb)
10.04.1945 – 07.05.1945 General der Panzertruppe Walther Wenck (mdFb)

No KTB available, so the start date of both armies is not fully confirmed.
Foertsch is my guess because no one was able to find a ranking officer who was mdFb until Kuntze arrived, but I may be wrong.
Er ist wieder da. Aber auch dieses Mal wird er nicht siegen!

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Re: German army commanders of WW2

Post by askropp » 15 Mar 2017 21:16

There never was a 13. Armee. A case of superstition? But there was a XIII. AK, a 13. ID, a IR 13 etc. And I doubt an AOK 13 could have had worse luck than say the AOK 6 which was wiped out two different times.
Er ist wieder da. Aber auch dieses Mal wird er nicht siegen!

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Re: German army commanders of WW2

Post by genstab » 16 Mar 2017 18:36

I have a different date for Gan. Kuntze's end of mFb and Gen Löhr's assumption of command- 8-8-42, which I found in the biographical sketch in the Trials of War Criminals Before the Nuremberg Military Tribunals (green series), volume Xi:The Hostage Case. On page 1274 of the Judgment section it says that Gen. Löhr did not arrive to assume command of 12th Army until 8 August 1942. I am under the assumption that we have been trying to find the actual dates of command when we can rather than what the records say, which as we know are often wrong. What say ye?

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Re: German army commanders of WW2

Post by askropp » 16 Mar 2017 20:11

I say that I would love to read the KTB AOK 12 from NARA T-312 R-451 and R-465. :milwink:

If the Löhr took over in August, the question is whether Kuntze stayed on until then or if there is another gap (with the Chef possibly managing the army affairs).
Er ist wieder da. Aber auch dieses Mal wird er nicht siegen!

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Re: German army commanders of WW2

Post by genstab » 16 Mar 2017 21:27

Seems the KTBs would be the best bet to confirm what the Nuremberg volume has.
I just wish I had the money to get these sources also and do the kind of research that you experten do.

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Bill in Cleveland

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Re: German army commanders of WW2

Post by histan » 17 Mar 2017 00:34

Kuntze was transferred to the FR but was told to remain in command (officially kdt) [FS in his Personalakte] until the arrival of his successor. The handover took place on 08.08.1942 at 17:00.
I don't know about a KTB but there is a Tätigkeitsbericht available on NARA T-311 R-175. [from which I got the date and time]

With regard to the period until the arrival of Kuntze on 26.10.1941 the Tätigkeitsbericht doesn't seem to offer much help.

However the following FS from the HQ to Ob.d.H was sent on 17.10.1941
"Generalfeldmarschall List erkrankt an Dickdarmkatarrh mit Blinddarmreizung. Oparetion bisher nicht noetig. Befinden gut. Vertreter falls noetig, General der Flieger Felmy."

OKH insisted that the post should be held by an Army officer and Hitler agreed to the appointment of Kuntze on 20.10.1941

So I would guess that askropp is correct and the Chef stood in until the arrival of Kuntze.

Regards

John

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genstab
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Re: German army commanders of WW2

Post by genstab » 17 Mar 2017 14:42

Hey, I got one right!

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Re: German army commanders of WW2

Post by askropp » 17 Mar 2017 18:03

Thank you, I did not realize that AOK 12 documents are also on HGr E rolls. According to T-311 R-175, Kuntze did not arrive until 01.11.1941.
Er ist wieder da. Aber auch dieses Mal wird er nicht siegen!

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