German High Commanders of WW2

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Rossano
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Re: German army commanders of WW2

#226

Post by Rossano » 25 Apr 2018, 19:20

Thanks John and Askropp. I do appreciate......But what is Your opinion about Hartmann or Wentzell ? Nothing in the docs. or KTB ? Rgds., Rossano
P.S.: back to the XIV.PzK : Hube was absent from about 26.04 to 03.05.43, who his deputy ?
Then, I have 2 versions of v. Senger commanding it, one from 23.10.43 and one from 25.10.
Also, to make things more complicated balck' s biography reads that he handed over the Korps on 08.10.43 "back to Hube", whilst v.Senger' s biography reads that he (v.Senger) "took over command" of the Korps already "on 08.10.43". Which the correct/true version ?
Finally, I miss the Korps' Chef d. Gen.St. from 03.43 to 07.43, or was the post unbesetzt ?

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askropp
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Re: German army commanders of WW2

#227

Post by askropp » 25 Apr 2018, 19:35

As I said, the KTB does not mention any Vertreter. Remember that Operation Diadem started during Vietinghoff's absence, so if there was any Vertreter, he and his command decisions ought to appear in the text. But the only one mentioned is Wentzell.
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Stauffenberg II
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Re: German army commanders of WW2: 5. Panzerarmee

#228

Post by Stauffenberg II » 26 Apr 2018, 10:44

askropp wrote:5. Panzerarmee (24.01.1944 to 06.08.1944 Panzergruppe West)
08.12.1942 – 09.03.1943 Generaloberst Hans-Jürgen von Arnim
09.03.1943 – 09.05.1943 General der Panzertruppe Gustav von Vaerst
24.01.1944 – 03.07.1944 General der Panzertruppe Leo Freiherr Geyr von Schweppenburg (bis 20.04.1944 mdFb)
03.07.1944 – 09.08.1944 General der Panzertruppe Heinrich Eberbach (mdFb)
10.08.1944 – 11.09.1944 SS-Oberst-Gruppenführer Josef Dietrich (bis 23.08.1944 mdFb)
11.09.1944 – 09.03.1945 General der Panzertruppe Hasso von Manteuffel (bis 30.01.1945 mdFb)
09.03.1945 – 17.04.1945 Generaloberst Josef Harpe

Mystery surrounds the arrival of Vaerst in Africa as the KTB PzAOK 5 (preserved until 21.04.1943) says not a single word about Arnim's promotion to HGr Afrika command or Vaerst's takeover.
Dear all, I have problems to read Geyr´s Kartei cards (NARA T78 R-893) correctly. I do not understand the following:

One Generalkartei of Geyr gives:

01.01.1944 mFb Pz. Gru. West
20.04.1944 OB Pz. Gru. West
02.07.1944 General der Pz. Tr. West
07.08.1944: Insp. d. Pz. Tr.

A second one gives:

01.01.1944 (1897): mFb Pz. Gru. West
20.04.1944 (1125): OB Pz. Gru. West
02.07.1944 (1991): Gen. d. Pz. Tr. West
07.08.1944 (2525): Insp. d. Pz. Tr.

Eberbach´s available cartei card (NARA T78 R-885) gives:

02.07.1944: mFb Pz. Gru. West

So what do both Kartei cards of Schweppenburg mean with the 02.07.1944 entry? Was Schweppenburg placed into FR on 02.07.1944 and both entries above are wrong or was Pz. Gru. West renamed General d. Pz. Tr. West on 02.07.1944 and Schweppenburg remained officially commander until 06.08.1944?

Anybody able to shed light on this, please?

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genstab
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Re: German army commanders of WW2

#229

Post by genstab » 26 Apr 2018, 13:26

It has been my understanding that Gen. Geyr was transferred to an administrative position, under Inspekteur der Panzertruppen (Guderian), to supervise procurement and training on the western front. Panzergruppe West continued as 5. Panzerarmee. When Guderian was made Chef des Generalstabs Geyr succeeded him as Inspekteur der Panzertruppen.

Best,
Bill

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askropp
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Re: German army commanders of WW2

#230

Post by askropp » 26 Apr 2018, 17:33

Geyr succeeded him as Inspekteur der Panzertruppen
No, he did not, because Generalinspekteur der Panzertruppen and Inspekteur der Panzertruppen were two different offices! Years ago, Dieter and Stauffenberg tried to untangle the jungle of responsibilities here.
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askropp
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Re: German army commanders of WW2

#231

Post by askropp » 28 Apr 2018, 22:05

19. Armee
24.08.1943 – 16.01.1944 General der Infanterie Georg von Sodenstern (bis 01.01.1944 mFb)
16.01.1944 – 01.02.1944 General der Flieger Erich Petersen (mstFb)
01.02.1944 – 02.07.1944 General der Infanterie Georg von Sodenstern
02.07.1944 – 18.12.1944 General der Infanterie Friedrich Wiese (mFb)
18.12.1944 – 14.02.1945 General der Infanterie Siegfried Rasp (mFb)
14.02.1945 – 24.02.1945 SS-Obergruppenführer Georg Keppler (mstFb)
24.02.1945 – 03.03.1945 General der Infanterie Hermann Foertsch (mstFb)
03.03.1945 – 26.03.1945 General der Infanterie Hans von Obstfelder (bis 22.03.1945 mstFb, danach mFb)
26.03.1945 – 05.05.1945 General der Panzertruppe Erich Brandenberger (mstFb)

Corrections and additions welcome.
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Stauffenberg II
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Re: German army commanders of WW2

#232

Post by Stauffenberg II » 08 May 2018, 14:49

askropp wrote:19. Armee
24.08.1943 – 16.01.1944 General der Infanterie Georg von Sodenstern (bis 01.01.1944 mFb)
16.01.1944 – 01.02.1944 General der Flieger Erich Petersen (mstFb)
01.02.1944 – 02.07.1944 General der Infanterie Georg von Sodenstern
02.07.1944 – 18.12.1944 General der Infanterie Friedrich Wiese (mFb)
18.12.1944 – 14.02.1945 General der Infanterie Siegfried Rasp (mFb)
14.02.1945 – 24.02.1945 SS-Obergruppenführer Georg Keppler (mstFb)
24.02.1945 – 03.03.1945 General der Infanterie Hermann Foertsch (mstFb)
03.03.1945 – 26.03.1945 General der Infanterie Hans von Obstfelder (bis 22.03.1945 mstFb, danach mFb)
26.03.1945 – 05.05.1945 General der Panzertruppe Erich Brandenberger (mstFb)

Corrections and additions welcome.
It is amazing that Gen. v. Obstfelders time at AOK 19 is not mentioned in his Wehrpaß, see:

https://www.weitze.net/militaria/33/Sol ... 48133.html

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Stauffenberg II
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Re: German army commanders of WW2

#233

Post by Stauffenberg II » 24 May 2018, 14:58

askropp wrote:
Geyr succeeded him as Inspekteur der Panzertruppen
No, he did not, because Generalinspekteur der Panzertruppen and Inspekteur der Panzertruppen were two different offices! Years ago, Dieter and Stauffenberg tried to untangle the jungle of responsibilities here.
NARA T-78 R-896 Frames 0045/0046 clears it up. There was an administrative position below OB West called Gen. d. Pz. Tr. West, with which Gen. Geyr was tasked from 02.07.1944-06.08.1944. So not related to Pz. Gru. West/PzAOK 5.

Jürgen

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Re: German army commanders of WW2

#234

Post by histan » 04 Jun 2018, 14:21

Some updates:

AOK 2
Confirmation of von Roman standing in for Weiss 17.02.1944 to 12.03.1944
"Der Oberbefehlshaber wird während seiner Abwesenheit vertreten vom Kommandierenden General des XX AK, General der Art. Frhr. von Roman. Dieser behält die Führung seines Korps bei. In laufenden Geschäften vertritt den Oberbefehshaber der Chef des Generalstabes."
KTB AOK 2 dated 17.02.1944
"13.30 trifft der Oberbefehlshaber nach Beendigung seines Urlaubs und zweitägigen Aufenthalt beim Oberkommando der Heeresgruppe Mitte wieder im Armee-Hauptquartier ein."
KTB AOK 2 dated 12.03.1944

AOK 4
Start date for von Tippelskirch standing in for Heinrici
"Der O.B. tritt seine Reise in den Erholungsurlaub an. Vertreter is Gen.von Tippelskirch."
KTB AOK 4 dated 05.06.1944

AOK 16
Hansen standing in for Busch 24.01.1943 to 16.03.1943.
"14.30 General Hansen übernimmt vertretungsweise die Führung der Armee."
KTB AOK 16 dated 24.01.1943
"18.10 Uhr Stellv.O.B. AOK 16 (Kom.General X.A.K) meldet Chef H.Gr. Übernahme des Befehls über die Armee."
KTB H.Gr. Nord dated 24.01.1943
"19.10 Uhr O.B. AOK 16 meldet sich vom Urlaub zurück."
KTB H.Gr.Nord 15.03.1943
"Mit dem heutigen Tage hat Generalfeldmarschall Busch die Führung der Armee wieder übernommen."
KTB AOK 16 dated 16.03.1943
"12.00 Rückkehr General Hansen. General Laux übergibt Geschäft und übernimmt das II.A.K."
KTB X AK dated 16.03.1943

AOK 18
Loch standing in for Lindemann 07.04.1943 to 14.05.1943
"K.G. übernimmt die Vertretung des beurlaubten O.B. Vertreter des K.G. bis zum Eintreffen des Generalleutnants Herrlein (General der Infanterie beim O.K.H) ist Generalleutnant Lindemann."
KTB XXVIII AK dated 06.04.1943"
"10.00 Uhr O.B. AOK 18 tritt einen Erholungsurlaub an. Gen.d.Art. Loch (Kom General XXVIII.A.K.) übernimmt die Führung der 18 Armee."
KTB H.Gr. Nord dated 07.04.1943
"O.B. AOK 18 kehrt aus dem Urlaub zurück."
KTB H.Gr. Nord dated 14.05.1943

Regards

John

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askropp
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Re: German army commanders of WW2

#235

Post by askropp » 04 Jun 2018, 14:45

Thank you very much, John!
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genstab
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Re: German army commanders of WW2

#236

Post by genstab » 04 Jun 2018, 16:17

Much appreciated, John!
Best,
Bill

histan
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Re: German army commanders of WW2

#237

Post by histan » 06 Jun 2018, 17:56

Some more updates.

Pz AOK 3
Previously I posted a telex stating that leave was being approved for Reinhardt for March and April 1942 with von der Chevallerie standing in.
The KTB for March and most of April doesn't seem to be generally available but this is from the KTB that starts on 27.04.1942
"An Stelle des noch beurlaubten O.B (Generaloberst Reinhardt) übernahm der Kom.Gen.V. A.K. (Gen.Lt. Wetzel) die Führung der 3.Panzerarmee."
KTB Pz AOK 3 dated 27.04.1942
"14.00 Uhr Gen.Oberst Reinhardt kehrt vom Urlaub zurück und übernimmt wieder die Führung der Panzerarmee."
KTB Pz AOK 3 dated 01.05.1942
Confirms that Reinhardt did go on leave and that for the final part of his leave period the stand in was Wetzel from 27.04.1942 to 01.05.1942

Pz AOK 4
HQ Pz AOK 4 was taken out of the line for a month. No KTB but - "Tätigkeitsbericht während der Leitung der Auffrischung im Bereich der Heeresgruppe Süd vom 25.3. - 25.4.1943" This has an entry for 04.04.1943 that has the OB talking with Generaloberst Model. But nothing after that. At some after that date Hoth went on leave and was still on leave when the HQ went back into the line, when Kempf stood in for him until his return on 04.05.1945.
"Die Heeresgruppe befiehlt, daß bis zur Rückkehr des Generalobersten Hoth, General der Panzertruppen [sic] Kempf die Führung der 4.Pz.Armee übernimmt."
KTB Pz.AOK 4 dated 25.04.1943
"Generaloberst Hoth ist vom Urlaub zurückgekehrt."
KTB Pz.AOK 4 dated 04.05.1943
This makes sense of the earlier post by askropp that showed Rüdiger as stand in on 17.04.1943. With the HQ out of the line it seems likely that the Chef managed any planning activities and the move back into the line, while Rüdiger handled the routine administrative work.

Also
Actual dates for Nehring 03.07.1944 to 06.08.1944
"Um 16.00 Uhr übernimmt General der Panzertruppe Nehring, Kom.General des XXIV. Pz.Korps, vertretungsweise die Geschäfte des OB der 4. Pz.Armee."
KTB Pz.AOK 4 dated 02.07.1944
"General der Panzertruppe Nehring, der in den vergangenen 5 Wochen die stellv. Führung der 4. Panzerarmee inne hat, gibt die Führung der Armee ab, um eine Korpsgruppe im Süden der H.Gr zu übernehmen. Die Führung der Armee übernimmt mit dem heutigen Tage der General der Panzertruppe Balck."
KTB Pz.AOK 4 dated 06.08.1944

Regards

John
Last edited by histan on 06 Jun 2018, 23:07, edited 1 time in total.

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askropp
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Re: German army commanders of WW2

#238

Post by askropp » 06 Jun 2018, 20:07

Awesome, John! Again, you were able to fill in some missing puzzle pieces.

There should be a KTB for PzAOK 3 covering 01.02.1942 to 25.04.1942 on T-313 R-248. Also, Wetzel should already have been a full general (24.01.1942 ernannt mit Wirkung vom 01.02.1942).

You are right that Rüdiger's tenure now makes sense. With no troops to command and Hoth away, Rüdiger was the senior officer present in the army staff. Kempf is also new to me. Would love to know when Hoth left.

For 1944, does that mean that Harpe commanded until 3 July? He should already have left to replace Model who replaced Busch. If not, there must have been another Vertreter at HGr Nordukraine (the Chef?) until Harpe's arrival.
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histan
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Re: German army commanders of WW2

#239

Post by histan » 06 Jun 2018, 23:15

Made a slight mistake for Nehring - date should have been 02.07.1944 - corrected in the post.

No mention of Harpe at all in the KTB for 01.07.1944 or 02.07.1944 so he could have left earlier.

KTB for 01.06.1944 to 30.06.1944 is on T-313 R-400 which doesn't seem to be widely available.

Lack of KTBs for the Heeresgruppen does make life difficult as well.

Just complete the extracts from the KTB for Pz.AOK 4:
"Der Oberbefehlshaber der 4. Panzerarmee, General der Panzertruppe Balck, ist mit der Führung der Heeresgruppe G beauftragt worden. Der Chef des Generalstabes der 4. Panzerarmee, Oberst i.G von Mellenthin, folgt ihm als Chef der Heeresgruppe.
Mit dem heutigen Tage übernimmt General der Panzertruppe Gräser, bisher Kom.Gen des XXXXVIII. Pz.Korps, die Führung der 4. Panzerarmee. Die Geschäfte des Chefs des Generalstabes der 4. Panzerarmee übernimmt vertretungsweise Oberst i.G. Müller (Christian), bisher Ia der 4. Panzerarmee."
KTB Pz.AOK 4 dated 20.09.1944

Regards

John

Rossano
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Re: German army commanders of WW2

#240

Post by Rossano » 11 Jun 2018, 11:19

Hello John
To Your corrections above
1) AOK.4 : I have GL. Müller from 5.6.44
2) AOK.16 : I have Hoehne acting at X.AK from 24.1.43
3) AOK.18 : GL. Lindemann acting at XXVIII.AK until 15.5.43 or before ? (I have Herrlein from 15.5)
(who was acting at 132.ID during Lindemann´s absence ?
4) Pz.AOK.3 : Wetzel acting really from 27.4.42 (to 1.5.42) only or from before ?
5) Pz.AOK.4 : Müller is reported as Chef from 25.9.44, whilst his Dienstlaufbahn reads first Ia then acting Chef from 11.9
Rgds., Rossano

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