German High Commanders of WW2

Discussions on the personalities of the Wehrmacht and of the organizations not covered in the other sections. Hosted by Dieter Zinke, askropp and Frech.
histan
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Re: German army commanders of WW2

Post by histan » 11 Jun 2018 15:09

X. AK
Hansen went on leave on 03.01.1943 and on his return stood in for Busch at 16. Armee
"9.00 Beurlaubung Kdr.Gen. Vertretung durch Kdr 18. Inf.Div, General von Erdmannsdorff."

The KTB of X. AK, as far as I can see, has nothing about a change of command until it records the return of Hansen.

The annexes have telexes dated 24.01.1943 and 17.02.1943 signed i.V. gez. von Erdmannsdorff
Also a telex dated 22.02.1943 signed Laux

The KTB of II. AK has:
"Der Kommandierende General, Ia und 2 Ord.Offz. fahren zum X. A.K., General Laux, um den Befehl am 22. oder 23."
KTB II AK dated 21.02.1943

An entry in the KTB of Heeresgruppe Nord has Laux in command at X. AK on 22.02.1943

XXVIII. AK
"K.G. übernimmt die Vertretung des beurlaubten O.B. Vertreter des K.G. bis zum Eintreffen des Generalleutnants Herrlein (General der Infanterie beim O.K.H) ist Generalleutnant Lindemann."
KTB XXVIII. AK dated 06.04.1943
"11.10. Generalleutnant Herrlein (General der Infanterie beim O.K.H) trifft auf dem K.Gef.St. ein und übernimmt in Vertretung des mit der Vertretung des O.B. beauftragten Generals der Artillerie Loch die Führung des XXVIII. AK."
KTB XXVIII. AK dated 09.04.1943
"12.00 Für den zum O.K.H zurücktretenden Generalleutnant übernimmt Generalleutnant Sponheimer die Vertretung des beurlaubten General der Artillerie Loch."
KTB XXVIII. AK dated 24.05.1943
"13.00 General der Artillerie Loch übernimmt nach Rückkehr vom Urlaub die Führung des Generalkommandos."
KTB XXVIII. AK dated 01.07.1943

So according to the KTB Kom. Gen. was Loch with his stand-in being
06.04.1943 to 09.04.1943 Lindemann
09.04.1943 to 24.05.1943 Herrlein
24.05.1943 to 01.07.1943 Sponheimer

Regards

John

Rossano
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Re: German army commanders of WW2

Post by Rossano » 11 Jun 2018 15:50

Well John,
Sometimes I wonder why the official dates in the Dienstlaufbahnen exhist if then no dates are effective and only the war diaries give the correct/real dates………..
to XXVIII.AK: Sponheimer until 1.7.43 ? I have von Graffen too, acting from about 31.05. to 16.06.1943.
Also, I have Schopper too, acting from Anf. Sept. 43 until ?
Rgds., Rossano

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Re: German army commanders of WW2

Post by Rossano » 11 Jun 2018 19:43

P.S.: John, I don' t understand the phrase You wrote above about the II. AK and X. AK :
""Der Kommandierende General, Ia und 2 Ord.Offz. fahren zum X. A.K., General Laux, um den Befehl am 22. oder 23." KTB II. AK dated 21.02.1943
On 21.02.43 the K.G. of the II. AK was Laux, so Laux drives (with Ia etc.) to the X. AK, Laux (again ??? Something is wrong in that phrase).
The K.G. of X. AK was Hansen, but on the 21.02. Hoehne was in command (I' ve him as acting K.G. from 24.01. to 16.03.43)
So, IF Laux was really in command of X. AK on 22.02. (just a few days or until 16.03. ?) did he hold both commands (II. AK + X. AK) together or who acted as K.G. of II. AK during Laux' s absence ?

histan
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Re: German army commanders of WW2

Post by histan » 11 Jun 2018 20:08

Hi Rossano

My translation is that Laux, the Ia, and the O2 drove to X. AK, which Laux was due to take over either on 22.02.1943 or 23.02.1943

According to the Korps records (KTB and Annexes) von Erdmannsdorff was in command of X. AK until 22.02.1943 then Laux was in command until 16.03.1943.

From the KTB of II. AK - there is a gap between 22.02.1943 and 27.02.1943
"Der Kommandierende General der Inf. Laux führt noch das X. Korps in Vertretung für General Hansen, der die Armee führt.
Bis zum Eintreffen des Kommandierenden Generals führt General Tiemann das Korps in Personalunion mit 93. Division."
KTB II. AK dated 27.02.1943
"16.00 Uhr Am Vormittag trifft General der Infanterie Laux ein und übernimmt wieder den Befehl als Kommandierender General von dem bisher stellvertretend führenden Kommandeur 93. I.D., Generalleutnant Tiemann"
KTB II. AK dated 17.03.1943

What is the source for Hoehne standing in for Hansen at X. AK?

Regards

John

Rossano
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Re: German army commanders of WW2

Post by Rossano » 12 Jun 2018 09:08

Thanks again John
Evidently, if I have Hoehne standing in for Hansen at X. AK from 24.01.43 (maybe for some days only then v. Erdmannsdorff again or Hoehne is wrong ?) I must have found+copied that data from somewhere, but unfortunately I don' t remember the source (maybe in a book covering also Gruppe Hoehne ?)
Rgds., Rossano

histan
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Re: German army commanders of WW2

Post by histan » 13 Jun 2018 23:56

Some more information

14 Armee
Lemelsen goes sick and von Seger is his stand in between 14.10.1944 and 19.10.1944
"Der Oberbefehlshaber, General der Panzertruppe Lemelsen, wird ab heute wegen Erkrankung von Kommandierenden General XIV.Pz.Korps, General der Panzertruppe von Senger und Etterlin, vertreten."
KTB AOK 14 dated 14.10.1944
"19.30 Uhr General v. Senger - Feldmarschall Kesselring
General v. Senger meldet sich als Vertreter des erkrankten O.B."
KTB AOK 14 dated 14.10.1944
"Der Oberbefehlshaber - General der Panzertruppe Lemelsen - ist am Nachmittag des 19.10 im Armee-Hauptquartier eingetroffen und hat die Führung der Armee wieder übernommen."
KTB AOK 14 dated 20.10.1944

Lemelsen transfers to 10. Armee and is replaced by Ziegler
"In den Morgenstunden verließ der Oberbefehlshaber - General der Panzertruppe Lemelsen - das Armee-Hauptquartier zur Übernahme des Oberbefehls über die 10. Armee. Der neue Oberbefehlshaber der 14. Armee ist bisher nicht eingetroffen."
KTB AOK 14 dated 27.10.1944
"Am Nachmittag traf der neue Oberbefehlshaber der 14. Armee - General der Artl. Ziegler - im Armee-Hauptquartier ein und hat die Führung der Armee übernommen."
KTB AOK 14 dated 29.10.1944

Ziegler is injured in an attack and after a short gap is replaced by Herr
"Bandenüberfall auf den O.B. 14. Armee
Am Vormittag wurde der O.B. der 14. Armee auf der Fahrt zum Hochgeb.Btl.4 auf der Abetone-Straße nördlich Pievepelago von Banden beschossen und beim Verlassen des Kraftwagens durch Sturz schwer verletzt. Nach dem Urteil des Armeearztes ist längerer Lazarettaufenthalt erforderlich.
Mit der Vertretung des O.B. wurden beauftragt:
In laufenden Fragen: Der Chef des Generalstabes.
In grundsätzlichen Fragen: Gen.Jahn, K.G./Gen.Kdo.Lombardia"
KTB AOK 14 dated 22.11.1944
"Am Nachmittag traf General der Panzertruppe Herr (Kom.General LXXVI. Pz.Korps) im Armee-Haupquartier ein und übernahm die Vertretung des Oberbefehlshabers der 14. Armee."
KTB AOK 14 dated 26.11.1944

Herr goes sick and is replaced by von Tippelskirch
"Der stellv.O.B. - Gen.d.Pz.Trp. Herr - verließ wegen Erkrankung in den Morgenstunden das A.H.Qu. zur Fahrt ins Lazarett.
Vertreter:
In laufenden Angelegenheiten: Der Chef des Generalstabes
In grundsätzlichen Fragen: Gen.d.Geb.Trp. Feurstein"
KTB AOK 14 dated 08.12.1944
"General der Infanterie von Tippelskirch traf im A.H.Qu. ein und übernahm die Führung der 14. Armee."
KTB AOK 14 dated 11.12.1944

3 Pz Armee
"Um 16.30 Uhr meldet der Chef des VI. A.K dem Chef des Gen.St., dass General der Panyertruppe Henrici beim VI. AK eingetroffen sei, wo er heute bleiben würde.(General Henrici soll den Oberbefehlshaber während dessen Urlaub vertreten."
KTB Pz AOK 3 dated 29.02.1944
"General der Panzertruppe Henrici trifft heute im A.H.Qu. ein und übernimmt die Vertretung des Oberbefehlshabers, der am 2.3. seinem Urlaub antreten wird."
KTB Pz AOK 3 dated 01.03.1944
"General der Panzertruppe Henrici befindet sich vormittags beim LIII. A.K und trifft mittags am A.H.Qu ein, wo ihm der Oberbefehshaber die vertreungsweise Führung der 3. Panzerarmee übergibt."
KTB Pz AOK 3 dated 01.03.1944
"Der stellv. Oberbefehlshaber, General Henrici, übergibt die Führung der 3. Pz.Armee an den Kommand.General des VI. AK, General Jordan, und begibt sich zur Übernahme eines neuen Auftrages in den Südabschnitt der Ostfront."
KTB Pz AOK 3 dated 16.03.1944

Not yet got a copy of the April KTB

As askropp deduced. both Henrici and Jordan stood in for Reinhardt when he went on leave.
The original plan had been for Henrici to cover the whole of the leave period but it was decided to send him to H.Gr.A to stand in for Hollidt at 6. Armee [which did not actually happen]

Regards

John

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askropp
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Re: German army commanders of WW2

Post by askropp » 14 Jun 2018 18:31

Thank you very much for this valuable insight, John. I would assume that Hauser also managed the laufenden Geschäfte during the short interval between Lemelsen and Ziegler. But one new question is opened by this info: who commanded AOK 10 (or managed its affairs) after Vietinghoff left and before Lemelsen arrived? Again its Chef (this would be Wentzell)?
Er ist wieder da. Aber auch dieses Mal wird er nicht siegen!

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Re: German army commanders of WW2

Post by askropp » 05 Jul 2018 14:17

The KTB of HGr Nord is now available at John Calvin, and it confirms the handover dates for AOK 18. Model was informed of his transfer early on 28 March, Lindemann arrived at the HGr HQ in the afternoon, and the official handover was early on 29 March when Model boarded the plane to Germany. On 1 April, Lindemann was called to the FHQ himself, handed the command over to Loch and returned on 3 April. It is very interesting to read how the absent Model still tried to meddle with HGr Nord affairs for several days, in an obvious effort to get reinforcements for his new command in the South, and there was a backstage power struggle between Model and Zeitzler (who was now supported by Lindemann, who needed all troops himself).
Er ist wieder da. Aber auch dieses Mal wird er nicht siegen!

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Re: German army commanders of WW2

Post by askropp » 05 Jul 2018 16:29

In the KTB of MilBefh Serbien, I found the following notice:

"19.07.1941 Während des Urlaubs des GFM List wird General der Flieger Felmy vertretungsweise WBefh Südost."

But List was still there and visiting Belgrad on 22 July. Does anybody know if he actually went on leave before his later illness?
Er ist wieder da. Aber auch dieses Mal wird er nicht siegen!

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Re: German army commanders of WW2

Post by askropp » 05 Jul 2018 20:30

I have now found an order signed by Felmy as stv WBefh on 31.07.1941. Also, List was in Belgrad again on 23 August. This could mean he was on leave for four weeks and travelled through Belgrad on his way to and from Germany.
Er ist wieder da. Aber auch dieses Mal wird er nicht siegen!

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Jeremy Dixon
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Re: German army commanders of WW2

Post by Jeremy Dixon » 20 Oct 2018 11:41

This is what I have:
Commanders of 1. Panzerarmee

16.11.1940 – 25.10.1941: Generaloberst Ewald von Kleist
[known as Panzer Group 1]

25.10.1941 – 21.11.1942: Generaloberst Ewald von Kleist
[known as Army Group Kleist Jan-May 1942]
21.11.1942 – 05.07.1943: General der Kavallerie Eberhard von Mackensen [mdFb]
06.07.1943 – 05.11.1943: Generaloberst Eberhard von Mackensen
05.11.1943 – 14.02.1944: General der Panzertruppe Hans-Valentin Hube [mdFb]
14.02.1944 – 31.03.1944: General der Panzertruppe Hans-Valentin Hube
01.04.1944 – 21.04.1944: Generaloberst Hans-Valentin-Hube
21.04.1944 – 01.05.1944: General der Infanterie Kurt von der Chevallerie [mdstvFb]
01.05.1944 – 18.08.1944: General der Panzetruppe Erhard Raus
[known as Army Group Raus from 25.07.1944 – 18.08.1944]
18.08.1944 – 20.03.1945: Generaloberst Gotthard Heinrici
[known as Army Group Henrici 18.08.1944 – 21.10.1944 & 17.12.1944 – 18.02.1945]
21.03.1945 – 04.04.1945: General der Panzertruppe Walther K. Nehring [mdFb]
04.04.1945 – 09.05.1945: General der Panzertruppe Walther K. Nehring

Would be interested in any comments. Thanks
Last edited by Jeremy Dixon on 20 Oct 2018 15:44, edited 1 time in total.

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askropp
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Re: German army commanders of WW2

Post by askropp » 20 Oct 2018 13:09

Jeremy, may I ask if you intend to go over all armies again? If so, I would ask you to wait until the first turn is completed. We have now reached AOK 19, so there are just a few armies left. We can then start anew and add all new findings.

If you are only interested in PzAOK 1, I refer to page 1 of this thread. The only substantial addition would be a stint of Fretter-Pico in command during April / May 1943.
Er ist wieder da. Aber auch dieses Mal wird er nicht siegen!

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Jeremy Dixon
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Re: German army commanders of WW2

Post by Jeremy Dixon » 20 Oct 2018 15:35

No thats not my intention, I was simply asking for comments or advice no idea it was so "structured" here and we have to wait.sorry! Just hope I don't have to wait 3 years !! :D

Don't agree with Fretter-Pico, can' t find any reference to him, other than here

histan
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Re: German army commanders of WW2

Post by histan » 20 Oct 2018 16:21

Hi Jeremy

Not sure what you are trying to list here:

The "mit Wirkung vom" or "effective from" dates given in the HPA files
or
The actual dates when command was taken over or relinquished, given in the Armee records (KTB etc)

In either case, it contains a number of errors.

The actual dates are discussed in various posts in this thread, usually with quotes from the relevant KTBs.

With regard to Fretter-Pico.
The compilers of the secondary sources that people usually quote have missed this period when von Mackensen was on leave. Easy to do as it is not mentioned in either the KTB of Pz.A.O.K. 1 or XXX A.K.
But there is this:
00844 Pz AOK 1.jpg
Regards

John
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askropp
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Re: German army commanders of WW2

Post by askropp » 20 Oct 2018 16:29

John, I may also refer to the HPA documents that you posted on page 6 of this thread (in August 2016).
Er ist wieder da. Aber auch dieses Mal wird er nicht siegen!

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