German High Commanders of WW2

Discussions on the personalities of the Wehrmacht and of the organizations not covered in the other sections. Hosted by Dieter Zinke, askropp and Frech.
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askropp
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Re: German High Commanders of WW2

Post by askropp » 16 Aug 2019 23:06

Thank you very much, John! A whole lot of new info, and no known Vertreter in some cases.

Do we know for sure that Bock really returned on 26.10.1940? I ask because he reported ill on 05.11.1940.

So Felmy was only stv WB Südost, but not stv OB AOK 12. I will have to correct that. I believe List reported ill on 15.10.1941.
Er ist wieder da. Aber auch dieses Mal wird er nicht siegen!

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Re: German High Commanders of WW2

Post by Rossano » 17 Aug 2019 08:37

Hello
deputies are always an interesting matter. I too have a few questions
I start with HGr. B.
Askropp wrote in page 21 that List was Deputy 05.11.1940 - 21.12.1940 (with Geyer as his Deputy during the same time), whilst I have v. Bock absent from 05.10.1940 to 04.12.1940. John too from 05.10.1940, but I wonder why to 26.10.1940 only. By the way, I have v. Bock absent 02.05.1940 - 04.05.1940 too, his Chef as Deputy ?
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Re: German High Commanders of WW2

Post by Rossano » 17 Aug 2019 08:53

P.S.: to HGr. C
John, is it reported who stood in for Ritter v. Leeb ? Maybe his Chef ? Thanks

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Re: German High Commanders of WW2

Post by histan » 17 Aug 2019 12:04

With regard to von Bock and his illness in late 1940. The telex quoted is just another piece of evidence to add to that already available.

In his diary entry for 22.09.1940 von Bock states "I have to go to bed on account of an old stomach problem, which has become downright uncomfortable, but for now I am continuing to run things."

From the telex it looks like he was granted leave from 05.10.1940 to 26.10.1940

In his diary entry for 21.10.1940 von Bock states "My illness has taken such a turn for the worse that I have had to hand over command of the Army Group to a temporary replacement, Generalfeldmarschall List. The Headquarters is now moving to Posen."

The entry in Halder's diary for 26.10.1940 states "von Bock sent on sick leave until the beginning of December"

In his diary entry for 31.01.1941 von Bock states " For the first time in four months I returned to duty and took part in a meeting of the Commander in Chief of the Army with the Commanders in Chief of the Army Groups."

A plausible assumption is that while the HQ of Army Group B was in Berlin and von Bock not too ill, von Salmuth stood in for him for operational matters. When von Bock became more seriously ill and the HQ moved to Posen, a stand in (List) was appointed.

Regards

John

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Re: German High Commanders of WW2

Post by askropp » 17 Aug 2019 12:46

It is very interesting to learn that, according to Bock's diary (and he should have known), List already took over the HGr in October. As we know, the KTB AOK 12 says: "Am 5.11. Verabschiedung des OB anlässlich seiner Reise nach Posen. [...] GFM List übernimmt in Vertretung des erkrankten GFM Bock den Befehl über die Heeresgruppe B. [...] General Geyer wird stv. OB der 12. Armee." Apparently, List was leading both the HGr and his AOK until the staff of the former moved to Posen. And as he was still around, there was no need for a Verabschiedung from AOK 12 until then. As it seems, the actual date of the takeover is uncertain, but it must have been between 5 and 21 October.

Another possibility is that List was appointed in October, but did not actually take over before 5 November, with Salmuth leading affairs until then.

Also, I have a note that Bock returned to duty on 3 February. Again, this is probably the date on which he reached the HQ (while the meeting with Brauchitsch was in Berlin). Meanwhile, Kluge had been commanding as List's successor.

And on Leeb: the KTB of HGr C has been preserved, maybe someone will share it with us some day.
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Re: German High Commanders of WW2

Post by Rossano » 17 Aug 2019 15:52

Thanks to both of You
Too bad, still so many uncertain dates...…
So, List deputy until 02.41 or did v.Kluge really stand in for v.Bock 12.40 - 02.41 or was the note in Halder´s KTB intended as a proposal/possibility only ?

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Re: German High Commanders of WW2

Post by genstab » 18 Aug 2019 14:12

I have GFM von Kluge standing in for von Bock at HGr. B from 21.12.1940 to 03.02.1941 (von Bock's war diary)
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Re: German High Commanders of WW2

Post by Rossano » 18 Aug 2019 14:45

Excellent Bill !
Many thanks ! Rossano

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Re: German High Commanders of WW2

Post by askropp » 19 Oct 2019 22:37

An update on Rommel's absence during his appendicitis in September 1943: because Vietinghoff was needed at the frontline and thus did not reach the HQ of HGr B before late on the 20th, Gause managed affairs in the meantime (that is, since the evening of the 15th, speaking with Rommel per telephone once or twice a day). Rommel returned on the 27th, one day earlier as I believed.
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Re: German High Commanders of WW2

Post by Rossano » 20 Oct 2019 10:45

Interesting, thanks Askropp
1) Is it known on which day Vietinghoff returned to his AOK 10 ?
You wrote above that Rommel returned on 27.09.43, so did Vietinghoff returned to AOK 10 on the same day or on 30.09 (like his Karteikarte reads…)
By the way, I have other absences of him at AOK 10, as follows :
2) He was 11 - 14.05.44 by Hitler and during his short absence one source reads that his Chef was his deputy, but his Karteikarte reads that Gen. Hartmann was 12 - 15.05 his deputy (if his Chef OK then Hartmann maybe nicht angetreten, or both OK ?)
3) The KTB. OKW reads that about end may 44 he got ill, but did he remain at his place or was his Chef (or who ?) his deputy ?
Thanks, Rossano

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Re: German High Commanders of WW2

Post by askropp » 20 Oct 2019 12:08

I believe this thread contains ALL high commands, of course including AOK 10. And I always update this thread based on the newest info, so to the best of my current knowledge, commanders were as listed here.
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Re: German High Commanders of WW2

Post by genstab » 20 Oct 2019 14:05

On Gen VIetinghoff's absence from 11 to 14 May 1944, his vertreter according to "Mediterranean and Middle East, Part One: Victory in the Mediterranean, 1st April to 4th June 1944" (History of the Second World War, United Kingdom Military Series) was GenMaj Fritz Wentzell.
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Re: German High Commanders of WW2

Post by askropp » 20 Oct 2019 16:16

Well, and what is supposed to be the source this book used? It may be that Wentzell, the Chef, was managing affairs (this is not a Vertretung!) because the KTB doesn't mention Hartmann, but I would say that's still short of a definite proof.
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Re: German High Commanders of WW2

Post by histan » 21 Oct 2019 21:52

The British and American official histories used the captured KTBs and other records (that is the "NARA Rolls".)

In particular, the Canadians produced AHQ 020 The Italian campaign Jan to June 1944.

This, states, based on the KTB of XIV. Pz.Korps, that Hartmann stood in for von Senger from 18.04.1944 and that von Senger returned from leave and resumed command of XIV. Pz.Korps on 17.05.1944.

So Hartmann was commanding XIV. Pz.Korps when von Vietinghoff left 10. Armee in the afternoon of 11.05.1944. Wentzell had just returned from leave. Nothing much was expected to happen - the reason that leave and trips away were authorized.

However, the allies attacked and according to the KTB of XIV. Pz.Korps, Kesselring, Wentzell, and Hartmann had a meeting at the HQ of XIV. Pz.Korps on 12.05.1944. It looks like von Vietinghoff was recalled, arriving back on 14.05.1944.

Hartmann was involved in the operations of XIV. Pz.Korps during the period of 12.05.1944 to 14.05.1944.

AHQ 020 makes no mention of Hartmann standing in for von Vietinghoff, which suggest that there was no mention of this in the KTB of XIV. Pz.Korps as well as no mention of it in the KTB of 10. Armee.

There is evidence that there was an intention for Hartmann to stand in for von Vietinghoff during his planned period away but no evidence that this happened. The evidence indicates that Hartmann remained at XIV. Pz.Korps because of the allied attack and that Wentzell handled things at 10. Armee for a couple of days until von Vietinghoff returned.

Regards

John

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