German High Commanders of WW2

Discussions on the personalities of the Wehrmacht and of the organizations not covered in the other sections. Hosted by askropp and Frech.
Rossano
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Re: German High Commanders of WW2

Post by Rossano » 24 Nov 2020 22:16

Normally I give You right, but maybe in some particular and short times/cases.......
Apart Mehner (as I wrote above) Müller´s Dienstlaufbahn (in Bradley) reads that after commanding the XII.AK (until 5.7) he commanded the 4.Armee but only from 5.7 to 8.7 (when he was taken prisoner), another wrong and ridiculous source ?

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Re: German High Commanders of WW2

Post by askropp » 24 Nov 2020 23:12

I also read those claims years ago, but since I found out they are nothing but crap. I don't know who invented this myth, but I suspect it was Müller himself or his communist admirers in the DDR. Let me repeat the historical facts: Müller was INSIDE a huge Kessel commanding his (or better Tippelskirch's) Korps, while Tippelskirch was OUTSIDE the Kessel commanding his (or Heinrici's) Armee. Müller was two ranks lower than the sufficient rank to command an army, and no GL ever did. He was also absolutely cut off from the Armee HQ and could have commanded nothing even if someone would have ordered him to to so. I wonder what Tippelskirch is supposed to have been doing all the time? Playing golf with Donald Trump? On top of all this, Völckers (who ranked Müller) was also in the Kessel. And finally, each new day in the KTB begins with the note "General Tippelskirch führt die Armee" to remind the reader that Heinrici was absent. All that Müller ever did was commanding a motley Kampfgruppe of shattered and disintegrating units formed around the remnants of his former Korps. It is not only ridiculous, it is pathetic that this command was inflated in post-war stories to a whole Armee. Several reports of successful Rückkämpfer even claim that Müller didn't command anything during much of the retreat but just trotted along with the human debris until he suddenly decided to surrender and disappered without even bothering to tell the majority of his officers. He was captured alone with his adjutant and a handful of men, but the DDR made a "huge surrender that saved thousands of lives" from this. In fact, most soldiers in the pocket did never see Müller, did never hear of any call for surrender issued by him and in many cases didn't even know him as was from outside the Armee and had the most common of all German surnames. Note also that he truthfully signed the NKFD and BDO manifestos as former "Führer des XII. Armeekorps".
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histan
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Re: German High Commanders of WW2

Post by histan » 25 Nov 2020 00:10

The records of AOK 4 are clear on this:

IIa Tätigkeitsbericht
27.5 O.B. erkrankt an Angina.

Then
Heinrici Sick Leave.jpg
And from the KTB
Der OB ist an Grippe erkrankt, behält die Führung der Armee jedoch bei. KTB 27.05.1944
Der OB ist noch krank. - 28.05.1944
Der OB ist noch krank - 30.05.1944
Der Generalfeldmarschall besucht den erkrankten O.B. - KTB 01.06.1944
Der OB ist noch krank - 30.05.1944 KTB 02.06.1944
Der OB ist noch krank - 30.05.1944 KTB 03.06.1944
Dem O.B. war der Antritt eines Erhorlungsurlaub genehmigt worden. Die Abreise sollte am 2.6. erfolgen, doch ist durch die Krankheit des O.B. eine Verzögerung eingetreten.KTB 04.06.1944
Der O.B. tritt seine Reise in den Erholungsurlaub an. Vertreter ist Gen.von Tippelskirch - KTB 05.06.1944

In summary:
Heinrici fell ill on 27.05.1944. It was decided that he should go on sick leave, effective from 02.06.1944. His stand in was to be von Tippelskisch (Kom Gen XII AK), whose stand in would be Müller. The hand over at XII AK took place on 01.06.1944. Heinrici's departure and the take over by von Tippelskich was, however, delayed until 05.06.1944.
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histan
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Re: German High Commanders of WW2

Post by histan » 25 Nov 2020 00:47

This is the note at the end of the AOK 4 KTB
AOK 4 KTB note.jpg
Regards

John
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Rossano
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Re: German High Commanders of WW2

Post by Rossano » 25 Nov 2020 09:59

I want to express my special thanks to Askropp for his extensive and passionate explanation, and obviously also to John for his exhaustive documental contribute. Rossano

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Re: German High Commanders of WW2

Post by askropp » 30 Dec 2020 23:45

After reading the KTB, I have corrected the date of transformation from MGr West to MOK West, both under Krancke, to 25 October 1944.

Also, the transformation from MGr Ost to MGr Nord took already place on 10 August 1940.
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Re: German High Commanders of WW2

Post by askropp » 19 Jan 2021 10:19

Dates for AOK Lappland / GebAOK 20 corrected according to KTB.
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Re: German High Commanders of WW2

Post by askropp » 28 Jan 2021 12:39

It occurred to me that there are still several high commands missing in this thread, as we have Befehlshaber in A-Stellen.
But before I can add them, I need help with two questions:

1.) Which Befehlshaber were A-Stellen, and which only F-Stellen?
2.) Where have I to look for their KTBs (NARA signatures)?
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Re: German High Commanders of WW2

Post by askropp » 04 Feb 2021 16:42

I have added several Befehlshaber on page 22. The three Militärbefehlshaber (Belgien-Nordfrankreich, Generalgouvernement and Frankreich) were always A-Stellen. The Wehrmachtbefehlshaber in den Niederlanden was later upgraded to that status. I assume that at least Dänemark, Norwegen, Südost, Ostland and Ukraine were also A-Stellen, but would like to have a proof.

Also, after Jungclaus was dismissed by Himmler in September 1944, the fiction of both the "Reichskommissariat Belgien-Nordfrankreich" and the HSSPF Belgien-Nordfrankreich were upheld by Hitler. Was there also a new fictitious Wehrmachtbefehlshaber?
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Re: German High Commanders of WW2

Post by Kriegsmarine Großadmiral » 26 Feb 2021 16:23

askropp wrote:
30 Dec 2020 23:45
After reading the KTB, I have corrected the date of transformation from MGr West to MOK West, both under Krancke, to 25 October 1944.

Also, the transformation from MGr Ost to MGr Nord took already place on 10 August 1940.
Could you please share the relevant KTB? I would be interested in seeing the original documents.

By the way, here is Hildebrand's data from Die organisatorische Entwicklung der Marine Nebst Stellenbesetzung 1848 bis 1945, Band 1 and Band 3:

Image
Image
Image
Image
Image

Regarding the transformation from MGr Ost to MGr Nord, notice how Hildebrand, even though he mentions the date 10 August 1940, sticks to the date 20 September 1940.

Regarding the transformation from MGr West to MOK West, there is no mention of the date 25 October 1944, only 20 October. He also has Wilhelm Marschall from 19 April 1945 until 6 May 1945. You have him "22.04.1945 – 06.05.1945".

There are also other inconsistencies between yours and Hildebrand's dates of tenure for certain admirals.
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askropp
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Re: German High Commanders of WW2

Post by askropp » 26 Feb 2021 17:44

I know Hildebrand, but Paper doesn't blush, and the plans of the bureaucrats often go astray. I would always believe in the KTBs.

4008.jpg
test.jpg
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askropp
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Re: German High Commanders of WW2

Post by askropp » 09 Apr 2021 19:13

I found a new one:

test.jpg
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Re: German High Commanders of WW2

Post by Rossano » 10 Apr 2021 11:20

Thanks Askropp for showing that
So v. Schobert was on 19.4.40 still Führer i.V. d. 16.Armee (from 31.1.40 ?)
And I obviously checked right away who at that time stood in for him at the VII.AK.
And there I found Heinrici but his Karteikarte reads :
"31.1.40 mFb. VII.AK", then "13.4.40 mFb. XII.AK"
So, unless somebody else took over command i.V. of the VII.AK after Heinrici, or Heinrici remained longer, until v.Schobert´s return (by the way, when did v.Schobert come back ?). In the latter case then Heinrici took over command of the XII.AK probably on 20/22.4.40 (nothing about that in the KTB of the XII.AK ?)
Rgds., Rossano

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Re: German High Commanders of WW2

Post by askropp » 10 Apr 2021 11:39

Unfortunately, I have no KTB to confirm this (neither AOK 16 nor VII. nor XII. AK).
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Re: German High Commanders of WW2

Post by histan » 10 Apr 2021 13:34

Heinrici was standing in for von Schobert at VII AK effective from 31 January 1940 while von Schobert was sick. Von Schobert resumed command of VII AK on 12 February 1940.

Details from his Personalakte

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