Österreichs Generale im Deutschen Heer 1938-1945

Discussions on the personalities of the Wehrmacht and of the organizations not covered in the other sections. Hosted by Dieter Zinke, askropp and Frech.
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Frech
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Re: Österreichs Generale im Deutschen Heer 1938-1945

Post by Frech » 06 Jun 2010 15:17

Dear Dieter!

Thank you very much.

I have been breaking my head wether I should add Haberer von Krems-Hohenstein or not. I had some doubt about it not knowing wether he got German citizen after going to Cologne or not. So I set him in waiting position. What would you think?

Another problem I have with the "designated as z.V.". Do you know if they were designated or not?

You won´t believe that exactly those men were the reason for what I started here. I purchased a "Große Bandschnalle" with some interesting orders and there were just few possibilities who would have owned a similar combination of decorations. The first idea was it must have been a medic officer who was over 60 years old in 1938 (he had the 1898 Jubilee Medal) and was designated to the Wehrmacht later in WW2. Dömeny was nearest but not exactly.

Alfred Krauss:
I think that here we come to one of the real heavy features. Former k.u.k. or ÖBH generals who were "berechtigt" wearing the german uniform. There must have been many ot them. Those documents were handed out by the OKH or OKL as far as I know in march and april 1938. If there is a good file documentation in their respective archives?

But as far as I can see now there is some interest in that thread and we all together could bring out a good documentation when working together.

Thank you again and my best regards

Christian

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Frech
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Re: Österreichs Generale im Deutschen Heer 1938-1945

Post by Frech » 06 Jun 2010 15:29

Hi again!

I think I should explain my project more detailed.

For the first I wnated to begin collecting names for a broad database. The next step should be to bring the names in a system similar to that which I used in my posting from yesterday.

Based on the names I will visit a near library to dig out the rest from rank lists of k.u.k. army, ÖBH and german rank lists.

After researching more than 25 years with similar military stuff I am sure that I never will be able to solve all the questions but I will try to do as much as I can. Some names and/or facts always remain in questionable status.

Going hand in hand with that research I will list all the deocrations which belong to the names as far as it is necessary. On ABR there is at least very much stuff mostly referring to the WW2 decorations of the generals. I will try to add their WW1 and ÖBH decorations when they are not listed on ABR so that they can be woven into it. From the list I posted yesterday I have approximately 75 - 80 % of the respective decorations listed at all what is a good amount I think.

You see guys what I will do as my summer work.

Regards

Christian

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Frech
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Re: Österreichs Generale im Deutschen Heer 1938-1945

Post by Frech » 06 Jun 2010 15:39

Just another for HFK:

thank you for the other input in you post. Those names were the last ones I collected and so they were not complete. Another problem seems to be that the ÖBH Schematismus and others (k.u.k., german rank lists) differ sometimes in the spelling of names.

Generals who were taken over during march 1938 and had to retire then just some weeks later seem to be victims of the "Muff Kommission". But if they were german generals just for one day, they were in my opinon.

But I think whatever we discuss here in that thread is good work. And there is a lot of positive feedback which I can use for my project.

As reward for you I will try to scan some of the pics out opf my collection and post them here. I have some dozen pics which I got from GdI Zehner´s daughter more than 20 years ago. And there are some real nice and interesting ones which I would like to share with you.

Regards

Christian

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Frech
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Re: Österreichs Generale im Deutschen Heer 1938-1945

Post by Frech » 06 Jun 2010 16:00

Here is a new one:

Christian[attachment=0]Urrisk, GenInt.jpg[/attachment]
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Gareth Collins
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Re: Österreichs Generale im Deutschen Heer 1938-1945

Post by Gareth Collins » 06 Jun 2010 16:20

Thank you so much Sir. Excellent stuff. Also neede are the Luftwaffe men

Kuderna, Julius

Müller-Rienzburg Wilhelm (von), GM

Pultar Josef, GM:

Till Alfons, char. GM

Regards

Gareth

PS: Normally new additions to this site are filled with people posting a Time Life picture of Blomberg and asking who it is. You are such a welcome change. Thank You.

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Frech
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Re: Österreichs Generale im Deutschen Heer 1938-1945

Post by Frech » 06 Jun 2010 16:24

Here a group of generals:

2nd from left (in front of window): an Oberst dG which is a Löhr-look-alike but can´t be Löhr who became GenMjr in 1934
6th from left: GenMjr Materna (one of the tow brothers)?

center group:

from left: Schilhawski, Kubena, Zehner, Obst Wagner (Zehner´s aide-de-camp), Jansa, Leitner

some for self-identification left.

Regards

Christian
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Frech
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Re: Österreichs Generale im Deutschen Heer 1938-1945

Post by Frech » 06 Jun 2010 16:32

Here is one of my favorits: List as GdI and Zehner as GdI inspecting together Austrian troops in 1936.

Not exactly pointing on our current thread but were topost it otherwise. Dear forum staff forgive me please.

Christian
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Frech
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Re: Österreichs Generale im Deutschen Heer 1938-1945

Post by Frech » 06 Jun 2010 16:36

Here is one from a Christmas celebration in an army hospital.

Right of Zehner should be Haselmayr as GenMjr and commander 2. Division.

And bonus material for Dieter: some medic officers in addition I assume.

Left of Zehner: GenArzt Dr. Karl Müllern, Heeressanitätschef.

At the most right: Militärprovikar Msgr. Anton Allmer.

Between Haselmayr and Allmer: Oberstarzt Dr. Oskar Leisner, Sanitätschef 2. Division.

In opposite of the group: MilOberKurat Josef Tegel, Militärpfarrer 2. Division.


Regards

Christian
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Dieter Zinke
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Re: Österreichs Generale im Deutschen Heer 1938-1945

Post by Dieter Zinke » 06 Jun 2010 17:26

Frech wrote: I have been breaking my head wether I should add Haberer von Krems-Hohenstein or not. I had some doubt about it not knowing wether he got German citizen after going to Cologne or not. So I set him in waiting position. What would you think?
Hallo Christian !

Concerning von Haberer:
1928 ging er als Ordinarius an die Medizinische Akademie Düsseldorf, wo er von 1929-30 ebenfalls Rektor war. Noch während seines Rektorats erhielt er im Dezember 1930 eine Berufung auf eine o. Professorenstelle an der Universität zu Köln. Von Haberer wurde Direktor der Chirurgischen Universitätsklinik Lindenburg (1930-48) und stellvertretender Direktor der Chirurgischen Klinik Augustahospital (1930-34). 1935 erfolgte seine Wahl zum Rektor der Universität zu Köln.

I think he must be a german citizen to be elected twice as a Universitäts-Rektor of a german university
(german university principal)

and concerning Payr:
00.10.1911 Ordinarius für Chirurgie in Leipzig (Chefarzt und Direktor der Chirurgischen Klinikim Krankenhaus St. Jakob in Leipzig; seinerzeit die größte chirurg. Abteilung im Deutschen Reich)
00.00.1929 Präsident der Deutschen Gesellschaft für Chirurgie

I think he must be a german citizen to be elected the chairman of the german surgical society.
Frech wrote: Another problem I have with the "designated as z.V.". Do you know if they were designated or not?
I have no idea, but there is the rub [da liegt der Hase im Pfeffer]:
z.V. with "Mob.Bestimmung" or without "Mob.Bestimmung" (i.e. without effect) ?? !!
See also for example August Ritter von Pitreich
01.04.1939 z.V. ObdH
01.09.1940 einberufen zur aktiven Dienstleistung
31.05.1942 Führereserve
31.07.1942 Mob.Bestimmung aufgehoben
30.04.1943 z.V.-Stellung aufgehoben

For the project in planning stage : May you have the fortune of the brave :)
Mast- und Schotbruch!

Auf's ganz Spezielle
Dieter Z.

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Frech
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Re: Österreichs Generale im Deutschen Heer 1938-1945

Post by Frech » 06 Jun 2010 17:51

Hi!

Gareth:
I am sorry failing to provide the requested pics. My stock on pics referring to single characters is very small. But I will see what I can find in books etc.

Dieter:
Thank you again for your detailed input. Would you agree not taking v. Haberer and Payr on my list? It´s how I wrote some posts before: some few % of all that stuff will never be clarified in a satisfying way.... There are arguments pro and contra. A classic chapter for an "Appendix A with a Sub-Appendix A-1" *lol*.

I always have been starting monster projects in the same way. Some of them I could bring to a end. But I think that every addition and every supplement which can be used here and in ABR will be worth to be done.

Meine Blume nach Deutschland!

Christian

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Dieter Zinke
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Re: Österreichs Generale im Deutschen Heer 1938-1945

Post by Dieter Zinke » 06 Jun 2010 17:58

Would you agree not taking v. Haberer and Payr on my list?
Yes !!

Fiducit!
Dieter Z.

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Elwyn W
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Re: Österreichs Generale im Deutschen Heer 1938-1945

Post by Elwyn W » 06 Jun 2010 23:43

This picture of Guderian visiting the Schnelle Division appears in many books. But Alex has patiently shown me the best quality we can find. We have since been scratching our heads. The other Brantner, Karl Brantner, was CdS of the Schnelle Division. So he must be here. But which one? Any luck you could shed some light, Christian?

Also Rudolf Theiß could be here?

Cheers
Freiherr
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Elwyn W
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Re: Österreichs Generale im Deutschen Heer 1938-1945

Post by Elwyn W » 07 Jun 2010 00:33

In the Himmler pic, from left:
FmLt Beyer, FmLt Kubena, FmLt Leitner, Moyses, Stümpfl, Löhr, ***, Materna.

In the v Bock pic, we see the line up from the other side:
Stümpfl, Löhr, xxx, Materna.

Who was "xxx"?

Cheers
Freiherr
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Frech
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Re: Österreichs Generale im Deutschen Heer 1938-1945

Post by Frech » 07 Jun 2010 07:55

Hi!

Freiherr:
I fear I can´t help with the identification of the GenMjr in question. He must have been from secret service always hiding his face in front of the camera *lol*.

I tried to find out with helo of the rank list hooing that they were positioned after seniority. But Moses would not be placed at the point where he stands then. From seniority there was Zuleger elder than Materna but he had no EK II 1914 which we can see on his breast before the Iron Crowm 3rd class.

Maybe it is one of the senior Generals of the Federal Defence Ministery but hard to find out.

Regarding to the Guderian pic:
It is always hard to identify Austrian officers wearing a greatcoat because they had no rank insignia on it. We can assume that the CoS would be placed near Hubicki and Guderian but the quality of the pic is too poor to recognize anyone. The staff officer between both generals should be the commanding officer of the batallion.

Reagrds

Christian

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Frech
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Re: Österreichs Generale im Deutschen Heer 1938-1945

Post by Frech » 07 Jun 2010 08:11

Hi,

here is a new one of Glaise-Horstenau with an impressive ribbon bar.

Regards

Christian
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