Hans Graf von Sponeck: Missing Biblio-AF General?

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Stauffenberg II
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Hans Graf von Sponeck: Missing Biblio-AF General?

Post by Stauffenberg II » 01 Nov 2003 11:25

Hi gentlemen!

May I ask if somebody can tell me sth. about an Air Force General named Graf von Sponeck.

I have a source telling me that he was Cdr. Luftgau IV (01.04.1936-12.10.1937) and Cdr. Luftgau III (12.10.1937-11.03.1938).

Additionally, I have a "Beförderungsorder" making him Cdr. Luftgau VII as per 01.04.1938 already being Gen. Maj.

Fine ... but whose that guy. Is it the same Hans Gf. v. Sponeck later becoming Cdr. 22. Air Assault Division of the Army? If yes ... was he AF Officer that time?

Can anybody help me out?

Regards,
Stauffenberg II

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Post by Svennie » 01 Nov 2003 14:36

Yes, it is the same guy. My scarce sources tell me he was Befehlshaber im Luftgau Berlin und München somewhere around 1937. Luftgau III must be Berlin and VII München, so that fits nicely.

Maybe this can tell you more, it is not in my possession:
Heinrich Bücheler
Das Exempel Graf Sponeck

At least the university library of Bielefeld has a copy, maybe you can borrow it through intra-library lending.

Sven

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Post by Stauffenberg II » 01 Nov 2003 17:15

Great Svennie!

Thank you very much. So I will add good old Gen. Lt. Hans Graf von Sponeck to the Luftwaffe Generals, too. I assume he was an AF Officer this time. I wonder when he reentered the Army. It makes sense that the 22nd Inf. Division which should have been reformed to an Air Assault Division was taken over by a former AF General.

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Stauffenberg II

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Post by Phil Nix » 02 Nov 2003 11:07

I am a little confused Keilig shows Hans Graf von Sponeck born 12.2.1888 as Oberst 1.10.34 GenMaj 1.2.38 (Patent 1.3.38) and Gen Lt 1.2.40. Kdr 22 Div 1.10.38. No mention of Luftwaffe service.
http://www.ww2.dk. shows Hubert Weise as Komm Gen Luftgau-Kommando III 12.10.37 - 3.10.39
Can anyone clear up the confusion
Thks Philmil

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Post by Stauffenberg II » 02 Nov 2003 11:11

Hi philmil!

This is from http://www.ww2.dk
http://www.ww2.dk./ground/hq/lgiii.htm

Luftgau-Kommando III

Kommandierender General:

GenMaj Graf von Sponeck, 12.10.37 - 11.3.38
GenMaj Hubert Weise, 11.3.38 - 3.10.39


Regards

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Gareth Collins
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Post by Gareth Collins » 06 Nov 2003 04:22

To the best of my knowledge von Sponeck was a Heeren officer, not Luftwaffe.

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Stauffenberg II
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Bradley Errata

Post by Stauffenberg II » 06 Nov 2003 10:56

Nice to hear from good old Mr. Collins again! How are you?

I checked the Luftgau III, IV and VII. There are indeed those gaps regarding higher AF positions. So somebody must be missing. It´s obviously a Graf von Sponeck and the Graf was Generalmajor (which I can learn from an AF sheet).

Bradley is very, very accurate and the best available source. Nevertheless there are also some mistakes/typos. I found 9 regarding Army A-Kl until now. Here we go:

1. Gen. d. Kav. Theodor Brantner
Director of the Presidential-Bureau in the Federal-Ministry for Army-Affairs, later called Territorial-Defence (01 June 1933 - 01 Feb 1934)
Director of Section 1 in the Federal-Ministry for Territorial-Defence (01 Feb 1934 - 30 Sep 1936)


In fact Brantner was still head of the Presidential-Bureau until 30.09.1936, while also being Sektionschef. (The Presidential Bureau [Präsidialbureau] was some kind of Organisations and High Officers Personnel Dept.)

See:
Schematismus des Bundesheeres und der Bundesheeresverwaltung 1934, 1936, published by the Ministry

2. Gen. d. Kav. Hans Feige, rank
Feige´s rank was indeed Gen. d. Kav. and not Gen. d. Inf. I posted his Wehrpaß some weeks ago which shows clearly his ranks.

See:
http://www.thirdreichforum.com/viewtopi ... ight=feige

3. Gen. d. Kav. Hans Feige, Chief of Staff Group 1
Feige was indeed Chief of Staff Group 1 (and not 2). The above mentioned Wehrpaß showed clearly that he was employed at Group 1 (and not 2) after being employed at Group 2.

See:
http://www.thirdreichforum.com/viewtopi ... ight=feige

4. Gen. Lt. Heinz Gaedcke
wrong DoB - correct: 16.01.1905

5. Gen. d. Inf. Hermann Foertsch
wrong DoB - correct: 04.04.1895

6. Gen. Lt. Oskar van Ginkel
wrong last name - correct: van Ginkel (instead of van Ginckel)

See: Ranglisten des deutschen Reichsheeres 1930, 1931 and 1932, published by the Army Personnel Office.

7. Gen. Obst. Johannes Blaskowitz
At the same time, was also Commanding-Officer of Border-Section Centre (06 Nov 1939 - 14 May 1940)


Höh. Kdo. XXXVI was head of Border Section Centre which was recently confirmed by Chris Awender at http://www.feldgrau.com

see
http://chrito.users1.50megs.com/karten/ ... 0mai40.jpg

8. Gen. Obst. Friedrich Dollmann
Commanding General of the IX. Army-Corps (~ - 25 Oct 1939)
Commander-in-Chief of the 7th Army (25 Oct 1939 - 28 June 1944)


There is no doubt that Dollmann already commanded his 7th Army from 24.08.1939. See the attached file which I received from Shawn.

9. Awards
Most regrettable I think is the inconsistency showing awards of the Generals. Once started presenting awards (for example the Ritterkreuz of the Hausorden of Hohenzollern or the Military Saint Henry Order) he should have presented these awards for all Generals. For example there is a massive lack of information regarding the Hausorden (Beck, Blomberg, Fritsch, ...), the Military Saint Henry Order (Altrock, Böhme H., Friedrich, ...).

See: Ranglisten des deutschen Reichsheeres 1930, 1931 and 1932, published by the Army Personnel Office.

Best regards! Nice to see the Gareth avatar again.

Stauffenberg II
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Sponeck

Post by Glenn2438 » 07 Dec 2003 11:31

I just came across this in "Die Wehrmacht-Elite" by Reinhard Stumpf:

The General Staff Officer Graf Sponeck came to the Luftwaffe in 1937 and was employed there as Luftgaubefehlshaber (Air District Commander) in Berlin and München; promoted to Generalmajor 1. 3. 38. Returned to the Army again in July 1938 probably on account of disagreements with the chief of the Luftwaffe General Staff, General Stumpff

Regards
Glenn

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Post by Stauffenberg II » 07 Dec 2003 11:36

Thanks for confirmation Glenn!

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Post by Dieter Zinke » 14 Dec 2003 15:13

philmil wrote:I am a little confused Keilig shows Hans Graf von Sponeck born 12.2.1888 as Oberst 1.10.34 GenMaj 1.2.38 (Patent 1.3.38) and Gen Lt 1.2.40. Kdr 22 Div 1.10.38. No mention of Luftwaffe service.
http://www.ww2.dk. shows Hubert Weise as Komm Gen Luftgau-Kommando III 12.10.37 - 3.10.39
Can anyone clear up the confusion
Thks Philmil


Dear Philmil,

in Rudolf Absolon: "Rangliste der Generale der deutschen Luftwaffe.....",
Podzun-Pallas, 1984 :
On the page 116 you can see the:

"Personalverfügung des RLM" (Geheim)
"Mit Wirkung vom 1. April 1938 werden ernannt:
die Generalleutnante......
die Generalmajore......
Graf von Sponeck bei den Offizieren z.b.V. des Reichsministers der Luftfahrt (Sonst. Offze.), zum Kommandeur im Luftgau VII."

Indeed von Sponeck was for a short time full member of the Luftwaffe, then he returns to duty in the army.
The reason may be, that the 22. ID, he later had to command, was to become air-born-troops!
I think, the author Karl-Friedrich Hildebrand (+) doesn't know these matters.
In the following volumes "Generale des Heeres", Biblio-Verlag, I had to correct this mistake.

Cheers

Oberstab

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Post by Phil Nix » 15 Dec 2003 12:14

Thanks for excellent info
Philmil

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Re: Hans Graf von Sponeck: Missing Biblio-AF General?

Post by Jeremy Dixon » 01 Jun 2016 17:25

Does anyone have a bio of Hans von Sponeck with promotions dates?

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Re: Missing Biblio-AF General?

Post by askropp » 01 Jun 2016 18:07

I still doubt whether Sponeck ever was transferred to the Luftwaffe. The Stellenbesetzung and DAL from 12.10.1937 and the Personalveränderungen promoting him to GM from 10.02.1938 both list him as Heer officer "zur Verfügung des ObdH (sonstige Offiziere)". On 10.11.1938, he is also Heer. For me, this looks like a Kommandierung. If he left the Heer between February and November, the Personalveränderungen should tell. I will check this later.

P.S. I did not find Sponeck between his RDA assignment on 24.02.1938 and his appointment to Kdr 22. Div on 15.11.1938. In both cases, he is still "zur Verfügung des ObdH (sonstige Offiziere)". I can't explain the order quoted by Absolon and would love to see the original.
Er ist wieder da. Aber auch dieses Mal wird er nicht siegen!

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Re: Hans Graf von Sponeck: Missing Biblio-AF General?

Post by askropp » 01 Jun 2016 21:13

Okay, on a closer look I noticed that the 1937 Stellenbesetzung lists a whole bunch of Heer officers as z.V. der Luftwaffe. They are all listed under "Zur Verfügung des Oberbefehlshabers des Heeres - B: Sonstige Offiziere - Zur Verfügung des Reichsministers der Luftfahrt und Oberbefehlshabers der Luftwaffe". I believe that most if not all of them were "lend" to the Luftwaffe from 01.10.1937, and that the majority of them did not become Luftwaffe officers. They include some well known names:

Oberst (E) Kuntze
Oberst Reinhard
Oberst Graf von Sponeck
Oberst Laux
Oberst Hellmich
Oberstleutnant Schlemm
Oberstleutnant Kirschner
Major (E) von Issendorff
Major (E) Grosse
Major Finger
Major Gruner
Hauptmann (E) Willhelmi
Er ist wieder da. Aber auch dieses Mal wird er nicht siegen!

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Re: Hans Graf von Sponeck: Missing Biblio-AF General?

Post by askropp » 01 Jun 2016 21:23

xx.xx.19xx Hauptmann mit RDA vom 16.09.1917 (8)
xx.xx.1928 Major mit RDA vom 01.02.1928 (25a)
01.10.1932 Oberstleutnant (16)
01.10.1934 Oberst (4)
10.02.1938 Generalmajor (ohne RDA)
28.02.1938 RDA vom 01.03.1938 (5) erhalten
01.02.1940 Generalleutnant (7)

in Stellenbesetzung of:
01.04.1924 im Generalstab des Artillerieführers III (Berlin)
01.05.1925 im Generalstab des Artillerieführers III (Berlin)
01.05.1926 im Generalstab des Artillerieführers III (Berlin)
01.05.1927 in der Heeresorganisationsabteilung des Truppenamtes (Berlin)
01.05.1928 in der Heeresorganisationsabteilung des Truppenamtes (Berlin)
01.05.1929 in der Heeresorganisationsabteilung des Truppenamtes (Berlin)
01.05.1930 im Stab der 3. Division (Berlin)
01.05.1931 im Stab der 3. Division (Berlin)
01.05.1932 im Stab der 3. Division (Berlin)
01.05.1933 im Stab der 3. Division (Berlin)
01.04.1934 im Stab der 3. Division (Berlin)
01.02.1935 Kommandeur des Infanterieregiments 48 (Döberitz)
15.10.1935 Kommandeur des Infanterieregiments 48 (Neustrelitz)
07.10.1936 Kommandeur des Infanterieregiments 48 (Neustrelitz)
12.10.1937 zur Verfügung des Oberbefehlshabers des Heeres (sonstige Offiziere) / zur Verfügung des Reichsministers der Luftfahrt und Oberbefehlshabers der Luftwaffe
10.11.1938 Kommandeur der 22. Division (Bremen)

while z.V. der Luftwaffe:
01.10.1937 - 04.02.1938 mit der Wahrnehmung der Geschäfte als Kommandierender General im Luftgau IV (Berlin) beauftragt
04.02.1938 - 11.03.1938 mit der Wahrnehmung der Geschäfte als Kommandierender General im Luftgau III (Berlin) beauftragt
01.04.1938 - 30.06.1938 mit der Wahrnehmung der Geschäfte als Kommandierender General im Luftgau VII (München) beauftragt
Last edited by askropp on 01 Jun 2016 22:03, edited 1 time in total.
Er ist wieder da. Aber auch dieses Mal wird er nicht siegen!

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