Awardholders / unit

[copiloto]

Hello.
I have found some discrepancies for the 5.SS-Panzer-Division "Wiking"

NKSiG Becker, Ernst was awarded 15-2-1944
Source: http://www.ww2awards.com/person/8672

NKSiG Metz, Werner was awarded in the unit: 1./SS-Panzer-Pionier-Bataillon 5
Source: http://www.ww2awards.com/person/8970

NKSiG Meyer, Werner was awarded 12-4-1944
Source: http://www.ww2awards.com/person/34006

NKSiG Müllenbach, Gerd was awarded in the unit: 1./SS-Panzer-Pionier-Bataillon 5
Source: http://www.ww2awards.com/person/8985

NKSiG Rock, Willi was awarded in the unit: 3./SS-Panzer-Pionier-Bataillon 5
Source: http://www.ww2awards.com/person/9057

Best regards.
Jordi

[USAF1986]

Jordi,

NKSiG Becker, Ernst was awarded 15-2-1944 – you are correct

NKSiG Metz, Werner was awarded in the unit: 1./SS-Panzer-Pionier-Bataillon 5 – you are correct

NKSiG Meyer, Werner was awarded 12-4-1944 – you are correct

NKSiG Müllenbach, Gerd was awarded in the unit: 1./SS-Panzer-Pionier-Bataillon 5 – you are correct

NKSiG Rock, Willi was awarded in the unit: 3./SS-Panzer-Pionier-Bataillon 5 – you are correct

Best regards,
Shawn

[Bernd R]

RE : 296. , 297. , 298. Inf.Div finished , thanks Shawn.

RE : NKiG add & corr 5. SS-Pz.Div "Wiking" done, thanks Jordi and Shawn.

Bernd

[Bernd R]

Please, all, help me to finish the review of the following division
Was announced as review ready and had one round of final review ; several points still open but nothing impossible I guess

1. SS-Pz.Div "LSSAH" [page 48]

Heubeck, Konrad, 04.06.1944, SS-Hauptscharführer, 1.(s.)/SS-Pz.Rgt. 1

DKiG ; Panther-Abteilung, I.,1.-4. designated "schwer" ? I'm not aware it was called like that ; is it official ? typo ? in the files by chance ? If I'm correct only the Tiger-Kompanie = 13.(s.) (Wittmann and others) did have this affix.
It is the same for other recipients, for others not !?

Kuhlmann, Herbert, 08.11.1944, SS-Sturmbannführer, I./(s.) SS-Pz.Rgt. 1 LSSAH
Otto, Ernst, 30.12.1944, SS-Obersturmführer, I./(schw.) SS-Pz.Rgt. 1
Stübing, Hans, 13.02.1944, SS-Obersturmführer, 2.(s.)/SS-Pz.Rgt. 1

Krocza, Leopold, 28.02.1944, SS-Hauptsturmführer, 4./LSSAH

DKiG ; correct should be : 1941

Linden, Heinz, 13.02.1944, Stab/1. SS-Pz.Div. LSSAH

DKiG ; rank ?

Meyer, Kurt, 08.02.1942, SS-Sturmbannführer, SS-Div. “Adolf Hitler”
Witt, Fritz, 08.02.1942, SS-Obersturmbannführer, SS-Div. “Adolf Hitler”

DKiG ; unit designation ??

Eggers, Wilhelm, 15.01.1944, SS-Obersturmführer T.F. (K) I, SS-Stu.Gesch.Abt. 1 LSSAH

DKiS ; position ?

Sievers, Franz, 00.00.0000, SS-Obersturmführer, Chef 3./SS-Pz.Pi.Btl. 1

NKiG ; date ?

Hasewinkel, Hermann, 05.03.1945, SS-Hauptsturmführer, 3./S-Kp. (Pz.Gren. LSSAH)

EBS ; unit ?

Thanks, Bernd

[USAF1986]

Bernd,

Krocza – 28.02.1942

Linden – SS-Hauptsturmführer

Meyer and Witt are both listed by Scheibert without units (I’m not certain of the exact designation at the time the awards were rendered, but I believe Meyer was Kdr. Aufkl.Abt. LSSAH; I’m not certain of Witt’s command. It would be nice if someone with Yerger’s books on the DKiG holders of the SS would help out.)

Eggers – as listed in Scheibert

Sievers – no date (00.00.0000) in 2006 edition of Dörr

Hasewinkel – as listed in Scheibert

Best regards,
Shawn

[Jan-Hendrik]

24. Panzer-Division additions & corrections
and 23. Infanterie-Division (Neu)

24. PD

Knight’s Cross :

it is to regard and to re-think perhaps the aspect of subordination of units.

Trittel, Rudolf [799. EL] , 23.03.1945, OTL, Kdr. Gren.Rgt. 9
Brandes, Ernst, 05.03.1945, Lt d.R., Fhr. 6./Gren.Rgt. 9
Holz, Hermann, 14.04.1945, Ofw, Fhr. 3./Gren.Rgt. 9
are listed with 23. Inf.Div (Neu) ; they are not listed with this division on page 30

Meyer von, Kuno, 26.11.1944, Major, Kdr. I./Pz.Rgt. 24
is not listed with 24. PD by V.S. as well
he appears in the 116. Pz.Div list on page 11 of the thread with note “subordinated”

I. Abteilung / Pz.Rgt 24, reformed after Stalingrad, trained and equipped with Pz. V Panther in France was not with the division for the rest of the war. With the status of a Heerestruppe unit it was subordinated to 116. Pz.Div in France for the time period 01.07. – 25.11.1944 and later fought in Hungary.
This unit is maybe open to be listed on it’s own and in addition in a “subordinated” status,
especially to 116. Pz.Div (there are several German Cross in Gold holders, too).

Grenadier-Regiment 9 was split off from 23. Inf.Div in East Prussia and subordinated to 24. PD since end of january 1945. It is the same for these other units of 23. ID (neu) : I./GR 67 , I./Füs.Rgt 68 and 1./Pi.Btl 23.


German Cross in Gold : to cross out
Neufeld, Ernst, Radf.Abt 1 : belongs to 1. Kav.Div and is not listed there
3 DKiG holders to add
Bachor, Wilhelm, 28.06.1944, Unteroffizier, 12./.Pz.Rgt. 24
Hammacher, Norbert, 01.02.1945, Rittmeister, Felders.Abt. 89
Schlaefereit, Heinz, 06.01.1945, Oberleutnant, 4./Pz.Aufkl.Abt. 24

Warczak, Wladislaus, 15.04.1945, Gefr., 1./Pz.Gren.Rgt. 26 , is confirmed

6 recipients of I./Pz.Rgt. 24 are falling in the time period the Abt was not with the division :
Abt / Böke / Fischer,Alfons / Kuls / Lenz / Niedrighaus

Huhn, Walter, 09.03.1945, GR 9 could be listed with either 24. PD or 23. ID (neu)

some minor points concerning names :
Bechthold Graf von Bernstorff, Martin Packebusch, Horst von Rosenberg-Lipinsky


Close Combat Clasp in Gold :
correct name : Erich Bußler (not Bußsler)


Source:

Veit Scherzer

[Bernd R]

RE : 6. Panzer-Division [page 8] and 12. Panzer-Division [page 8]

both completely finished now, based on the newest results on
Lüdecke, Pz.Rgt 29, AU : http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=123610
von Bernuth, Fhr. 6. Pz.Div, AU : http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=123580
also listed with 12. Pz.Div ("Aufklärer" as usual )

Quote:
* Schenkel, [first name not listed], 07.07.1941 (062), Oblt., Pz.Aufkl.Abt. 2

Pz.AA 2 / 2. Pz.Div was formed 1943 from Kradsch.Btl 2 first

The recon unit of 12. Pz.Div was Aufkl.Abt (mot) 2 which was merged with K 22 in 1943 ;
as a matter of fact it was renamed Pz.AA 2 - at least called like that - in autumn 1940 already ;
So, I agree, Schenkel belongs to Pz.AA 2 (= AA (mot) 2) / 12. Pz.Div ; see no other attachment.

RE : 3. Panzer-Division [page 29]

add & corr done ; Div finished completely
Buchterkirch, EBS with note "unconfirmed" ; 5 AU recipients with date "00.00.1945" under the headline : OKH-Entscheidung nicht mehr veröffentlicht
Thanks, Jan-Hendrik, for the add&corr agenda !

Bernd

[Bernd R]

RE : 1. SS-Pz.Div "LSSAH"

I finally found the DKiG data for Meyer,Kurt and Witt (manuscript Miller) :
Meyer, Kurt, Kdr Aufkl.Abt / SS-Div "Leibstandarte SS Adolf Hitler"
Witt, Fritz, Kdr I. / SS-Inf.Rgt 1 / SS-Div "Leibstandarte SS Adolf Hitler"

I tend to see the unit designation for these both -> "SS-Div "Adolf Hitler" as unusual, at least out of the row.
See for Krocza, Leopold -> 28.02.1942, SS-Hauptsturmführer, 4./LSSAH
also february 1942 ; I'm always asking myself if we see just different unit designations used for just the same case = it happened, so what ! or
if we see just another of the many typos or transcription errors that happened (in published works)

same for I.(Panther) Abteilung / SS-Pz.Rgt 1 ; I tend to cross out all this "schwer" stuff

Eggers, DKiS : "T.F. I" ; not quite sure what it really is ; is it "Truppführer I" ?

same for Hasewinkel : does someone know how "3./S-Kp. (Pz.Gren LSSAH) is to read in a whole word ?

Bernd

[Jan-Hendrik]

"T.F. I"

Maybe analogue to TFK Technischer Führer Instandsetzung ??

Jan-Hendrik

[USAF1986]

Witt, Fritz, Kdr I. / SS-Inf.Rgt 1 / SS-Div "Leibstandarte SS Adolf Hitler"

I don't think the infantry regiments of the LSSAH were organized as early as Witt’s DKiG award date of 8 Feb 1942. I’ve been looking through Lehmann’s Leibstandarte II and see Witt commanded I./LSSAH during the beginning of the Russian campaign. In late 1941 he also commanded Gruppe Witt (I. and IV./LSSAH).

Lehmann notes the plan to refurbish the LSSAH was announced on 24 Jan 1942, but apparently didn’t get underway until Feb 1942 at Seenelager and Lichterfelde. The new units/staffs, including the two infantry regiments, didn’t get formally incorporated into the LSSAH proper until 5 July 1942 when orders were issued to that effect.

Best regards,
Shawn

[USAF1986]

Delete - double post.

[Bernd R]

Shawn, absolutely convincing. What to say more, no numbered Inf.Rgts. So, it is for Witt :
Kdr I./LSSAH

Jan-Hendrik, convincing, too. So, it is for Eggers :
Technischer Führer (K) Instandsetzung

For Hasewinkel, I suggest we take over the entry : 3./S-Kp. (Pz.Gren LSSAH) for the time being.
I will put it on the open questions list as well, we have it fixed then for further handling and maybe somone will find an answer next.

Thanks, Bernd

[Bernd R]

Jan-Hendrik,

thanks for 24. Pz.Div add&corr and pointing out the aspect of subordinated units.

for us all repeated below what was the idea so far, stated on [page 49]

rule 5 : sub-units which have been detached to another headquarter unit than their origin one for a longer time period counted with their new headquarter unit
-> that’s the point, I know ; nearly impossible to follow all the subordinations

...

rule 5 c : “longer time period” -> few days not enough -> if a unit was subordinated for a time period of more than 3 months I would tend to count it with the new headquarter unit -> if a unit was subordinated for a complete campaign /operation / theatre I would clearly count it with the leading headquarter unit -> if a unit was subordinated for a major local fighting without connection to it’s proper headquarter unit I would tend to count it with the new headquarter unit

It is of course a matter of interpretation and a matter of individual judgement to see it this or that way. So, the Gren.Rgt 9 recipients basically should be listed anywhere, first win.

Marko, some time ago, told me that in many divisional histories the award holders of subordinated units are listed in supplements and he would prefer this kind of listing. In principle this is what we followed so far, except the minor point of "counting" which is not the decisive aspect at the end of the day. So, this would be an argument against the listing of these recipients with their origin headquarter divisions, purely according to theory.
Therefore I tend to list the Gren.Rgt 9 recipients with 24. Pz.Div as we have a clear case of a new command structure here. To add a note to the 23. Inf.Div list could make it clear these recipients are not forgotten and can avoid irritation.

We could list I./Pz.Rgt 24 for it's own, Yes ; other independent Panther-Abt, too, in consequence.
The listing of Kuno von Meyer with 116. Pz.Div, only KC holder of this time period should be ok ? Adding the DKiG recipients (note: subordinated), too ?

It is not, we will be able to find a mathematical result here. We had discussions about this issue and we agreed on some conclusions, at least nobody claimed the choice of listing is not based on reflection and some good arguments.
At the end of the day it is a decision on how to handle those subordinated stuff ; if we come near to a complete listing of all recipients and any list is explaining it's content sufficiently to the reader, it's ok to me.

Bernd

[copiloto]

Hello.
I have got an addition for the 2.Fallschirm-Jäger-Division:
Endres, Wilhelm-Werner was awarded the DKiG, 29-9-1944, Oberleutnant, Führer, 7. / Fallschirmjäger-Regiment 6
Source: http://www.ww2awards.com/person/8744

Best regards.
Jordi

[copiloto]

Hello.
I have found a discrepancy for the 8.SS-Kavallerie-Division "Florian Geyer":
NKSiG Buck, Friedrich was awarded in the 5./SS-Kav.Rgt. 15
Source: http://www.ww2awards.com/person/28770

Best regards.
Jordi