Franz Scheidies KC as Kdr Inf.Rgt 127 ?

Discussions on the personalities of the Wehrmacht and of the organizations not covered in the other sections. Hosted by askropp and Frech.
User avatar
Bernd R
Member
Posts: 4637
Joined: 01 Feb 2006, 16:12
Location: Bavaria, Germany

Franz Scheidies KC as Kdr Inf.Rgt 127 ?

#1

Post by Bernd R » 01 Feb 2006, 16:50

Hello to all, this is my first post here !
I want to start with a praise for the high quality of this forum.

Researching the KC dates of SCHEIDIES, Franz (OL-holder) I noticed that he got the KC as :
Oberstleutnant Kdr Inf.Rgt 127 05.08.1940

My question is : is Inf.Rgt 127 really correct ?
It would be nice if someone could confirm this unit and maybe give any proof.

I have my doubts because:
1) I./Inf.Rgt 127 was under command of Kdo der Grenztruppen Saarpfalz (later,Sept 1939 XXIV. AK) and I think they didn't took part so much in Frankreichfeldzug. If so the Btl would be under command of Heeresgruppe C / 1. Armee which took the Maginot Line. But I can't find a participation of I./127 as an independent unit.
2) Scheidies came from Ostpreußen and is sometimes called the first KC-holder of the 1. Infanterie-Division.
Fo sure he got the OL as Kdr Inf.Rgt 22. Before he was a Btl-Kdr within 1. Inf.Div.

Thanks for any help
luchs

User avatar
VJK
Member
Posts: 4900
Joined: 07 Apr 2002, 16:50
Location: Riga, Latvia

#2

Post by VJK » 01 Feb 2006, 18:58

Hi Luchs!

Welcome to the Forum! According to these sources, Scheidies received the RK as Kdr. of IR 27 of the 12. ID.

http://www.ritterkreuztraeger-1939-45.d ... -Franz.htm
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?p=3869

I should add that Glenn, who posted the brief bio of Scheidies on this Forum is extremely authoritative and a source I trust implicitly.

Regards,

VJK


User avatar
Dieter Zinke
In memoriam
Posts: 9841
Joined: 02 Dec 2003, 10:12
Location: Koblenz / germany

#3

Post by Dieter Zinke » 01 Feb 2006, 19:02

Welcome aboard for a new member. Thanks for the praise, "Ovationen gewöhnt".

Scheidies was indeed Kdr. Fest.IR "C" (Div.Stab z.b.V. 444), but
called as Kdr. IR 127 in the proposal for the KC.

Dieter Z.

User avatar
Bernd R
Member
Posts: 4637
Joined: 01 Feb 2006, 16:12
Location: Bavaria, Germany

#4

Post by Bernd R » 01 Feb 2006, 20:57

Thanks VJK and Dieter !
With your input we are on the right track. Let's try to find the "final truth" because there is a conflict of sources - astonishing for an oakleaves holder ! I would like to see a proof - Stellenbesetzung , Urkunde , witness or something else.

First Fellgiebel : Inf.Rgt 127 (don't have the new Scherzer , would think also "127")
das-ritterkreuz.de : Inf.Rgt 127

VJK , have read ritterkreuztraeger-1939-45.de and Glen's post : Inf.Rgt 27
In my opinion that's correct, fits most with the career of Scheidies. but...

Dieter , didn't know that the proposal (Verleihungsvorschlag ?) was with Inf.Rgt 127.
Does it mean "127" was the unit Scheidies was in action with or is it possible that a unit where he was serving before
was written - means mistake !?
Will give all I researched some years ago about I./Grenz.Inf.Rgt 127 because I'm from the Palatinate and lived in
Zweibrücken where it was stationed (mainly from "Tessin"):
I./Grenz.Inf.Rgt 127 under command of Kdo der Grenztruppen Saarpfalz
Sept 1939 Kdo der Grenztruppen Saarpfalz -> XXIV. AK
I./Grenz.Inf.Rgt -> Festungs-Inf.Rgt "C" under command of Div.Stab z.b.V. 444 (as you said) - but troops stayed at the border when "Fall Gelb" started according Tessin
Stab Grenz.Inf.Rgt 127 -> build Stab Division z.b.V. 444

According the research of a friend (has 1-page Rgt-history of IR 127) Inf.Rgt 127 saw action at BRENSCHELBACH, ALTHEIM and SAARBRÜCKEN. Then at AZEREILLES at the Rhein-Rhone-Kanal. Then disbanded.

But the connection with SCHEIDIES is lacking.

And now look at : lexikon-der-wehrmacht.de entry for Scheidies : 127 !
And the Bio is inaccurate.

So the following facts are sure IMO :
05.08.1940 Oberstleutnant Kdr ...
KC action : Sturm auf AZEREILLES (or Azerailles) / town with this name at the Maginot Line existing
19.Juni 1940 wounded
At the beginning of the war Scheidies was Oberstleutnant Kdr II./Inf.Rgt 22/1.Inf.Div

But there is a gap and THE problem:
Did he become Kdr Inf.Rgt 27/12.Inf.Div in May 1940 or
did he become Kdr Inf.Rgt 127 (only bataillon) within 1. Armee ??

My speculation is that Scheidies as an "Ostpreusse" changed from 1.ID to 12.ID for taking over the command of Inf.Rgt 27. So the "127" sources would have a "one-type" mistake for decades.
But would like to become a result out of research instead of speculation please.

luchs

User avatar
Dieter Zinke
In memoriam
Posts: 9841
Joined: 02 Dec 2003, 10:12
Location: Koblenz / germany

#5

Post by Dieter Zinke » 02 Feb 2006, 00:53

PzAALuchs wrote:Thanks VJK and Dieter !
First Fellgiebel : Inf.Rgt 127 (don't have the new Scherzer , would think also "127".)
No my source for Kdr. Fest.IR "C" (Div.Stab z.b.V. 444) was Scherzer
Dieter , didn't know that the proposal (Verleihungsvorschlag ?) was with Inf.Rgt 127.
Does it mean "127" was the unit Scheidies was in action with or is it possible that a unit where he was serving before / after (?)
Yes, according: Thomas / Wegmann "Die Eichenlaubträger ...", Volume 2
luchs
Dieter Z.
Last edited by Dieter Zinke on 03 Feb 2006, 12:33, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
Bernd R
Member
Posts: 4637
Joined: 01 Feb 2006, 16:12
Location: Bavaria, Germany

#6

Post by Bernd R » 03 Feb 2006, 12:06

Thanks Dieter !
Now we have:
Veit Scherzer : 05.08.1940 Oberstleutnant Kdr Fest.IR "C" (Div.Stab z.b.V. 444)
and of course another good source (don't have books myself, friend did check):
Thomas/Wegmann, "Die Eichenlaubträger" : Kdr Inf.Rgt 127

That most probably means
for VJK , and all others who say Inf.Rgt 27 / 12. Inf.Div or 1. Inf.Div :
Inf.Rgt 22 / 1. Inf.Div IMO is out of the question
Inf.Rgt 27 / 12. Inf.Div seems to be not correct

Found an argument, Scheidies couldn't get KC as Kdr IR 27:
The later OL holder Theobald Lieb was Kdr Inf.Rgt 27 from 10.Nov 1938 - 09.Sept 1940
source http://www.geocities.com/~orion47/WEHRM ... OBALD.html

Now to make it waterproof I would like to know exactly when and how the KC action of Scheidies took part.
Obviously he got it for "Sturm auf Azerailles" (breakthrough of the Maginot Line)
Researched the following:
AZERAILLES is a small town of Dept. Meurthe-et-Moselle between Luneville and Saint-Die in France.
After action at Brenschelbach, Altheim and Saarbrücken that's the consistent direction of attack for IR 127.
Scheidies wounded 19. Juni 1940.
Eventually there is a Fort de Fermont in the area (?).

Maybe someone has : "Die 1. Ostpreußische Infanterie-Division", Werner Richter, Eigenverlag, München 1975
where the KC story of Scheidies is described ?
Maybe experts of the Maginot Line can contribute something ?

luchs
Last edited by Bernd R on 03 Feb 2006, 13:36, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
Dieter Zinke
In memoriam
Posts: 9841
Joined: 02 Dec 2003, 10:12
Location: Koblenz / germany

#7

Post by Dieter Zinke » 03 Feb 2006, 12:35

PzAALuchs wrote:Thanks Dieter !
Now we have not:
Veit Scherzer : 05.08.1940 Oberstleutnant Kdr Inf.Rgt 127
luchs
but, dear luchs, see my corrected post above
Dieter Z.

User avatar
Bernd R
Member
Posts: 4637
Joined: 01 Feb 2006, 16:12
Location: Bavaria, Germany

#8

Post by Bernd R » 08 Feb 2006, 12:46

Thank you Dieter for keeping in touch with this topic !
Will try again to get some input which had to be out there for several reasons:
- KC in 1940 was a sensation and Scheidies action should be mentionned anywhere
- Scheidies an unknown OL holder ?
- it was the only KC of a very special unit which ended to exist in 1940

Of course we can wait for the Band "Sch-" of the Biblio series but we are getting older :)

Tried to come as near as possible behind the story of I./Inf.Rgt 127 / Fest.Inf.Rgt "C".
And will ask further questions.
(sorry, a bit long but want to have this in context)


First complete TESSIN entry (in german, sorry):

Grenz-Infanterie-Rgt 127

* 10.11.1938, FStO ZWEIBRÜCKEN (nur Stab und I.; weitere Btle bestanden nicht);
getrennt eingesetzt:
Stab wurde 15.11.1939 Kdr. der Fest.Truppen/XXIV.AK ; 15.04.1940 beim Div.Kdo.z.b.V.444;
15.06.1940 Rgts.Stab/Fest.Inf.Rgt C ; 01.09.1940 Stab/Grz.Inf.Rgt 127 beim Mil.Befh. Frankreich
und am 26.11.1940 umbenannt in Stab/Inf.Rgt 256 der 112.Inf.Div (12.Welle).
Das I.Btl blieb im Bereich des WK XII (seit 01.08.1940 unter der Kdtr. der Befestigungen
Saapfalz) und wurde 22.11.1940 III./Inf.Rgt 690 der 337.Inf.Div (14.Welle)
E: 127 Idar-Oberstein, WK XII

Secondly what can be found in
WWII day by day : may 12th + 13th 1940


Heeresgruppe C

1.Armee
The Armee receives order to attack enemy positions to bind enemy forces, get better positions and take the sight into Saarbrücken. Operation “Fackel”
XII.A.K.
Attacks with 258.Inf.Div., 60.Inf.Div., 75.Inf.Div. with main effort at 60.Inf.Div.
258.Inf.Div.: The division receives order to attack on its left wing. For the attack the divisions receives Regimentsstab 461 (252.ID) under Oberst Schwalbe with the regimental companies and the III./461. The Korps sends the I./Grz.Inf.Rgt.127 which was organized as a Sturmbataillon.
(there is a map also)

Result:
So , obviously the Btl was named I./IR 127 until 15.06.1940 and used as a "Sturm-Btl".
Was Korpstruppe in may 1940 and under command of XII. AK.
Was in action together with 258. Inf.Div.
Question:
Does someone have the book (with info about "127"):
"Geschichte der 258. Infanterie-Division", Teil I: 1939-1940, Aufstellung und Frankreichfeldzug, 1975 , H.J.Pflanz/Georg Gudelius/Jürgen Dieckmann, Eigenverlag der Kameradschaft, Hamburg.

Now June 1940 :
also according WWII day by day :
June 14th : attack on Maginot Line / 1. Army
June 18th : attack towards Baccarat-Epinal / XXIV.AK (with 60./168./253.ID)
June 20th : attack on Baccarat / XII.AK , battle in Elsaß and Lothringen is ending
Think:
I./IR 127 was involved in these actions ; maybe served under different AK's.
Azerailles where the KC action probably took part is in that area.

Now July 1940 :
July 24th : Div. z.b.V. 444 overtaking command of the defense of the Maginot Line with Fest.IR "C"
July 27th : Fest.IR "C" replaces Fest.IR A,B,D at the Maginot Line between Aumes-Seltz

August 1st 1940 : I./127 leaving sector of 1.Army -> back to Gen.Kdo XII

Probable result for the "paper work":
At the time the Verleihungsvorschlag was made the unit was named officially Inf.Rgt 127 and
at time of Verleihungs - date the unit was named Fest.Inf.Rgt "C" (again).

Any single detail could help in this context.
luchs

User avatar
Bernd R
Member
Posts: 4637
Joined: 01 Feb 2006, 16:12
Location: Bavaria, Germany

#9

Post by Bernd R » 11 Aug 2006, 12:37

in keeping on my Scheidies topic till the very end :)

small piece of confirmation found for KC action of Scheidies in this recently "Koralle" thread :

Oakleaves-holders from german magazine "Koralle"

"...Bei den Verfolgungskämpfen von der Maginot-Linie bis zur Mosel zeichnete er sich besonders aus. Beim Sturm auf Azerailles wurde er schwer verwundet."

think wounded june 19th 1940 and KC action at Azerailles is for sure now.

luchs

Jan-Hendrik
Member
Posts: 8695
Joined: 11 Nov 2004, 13:53
Location: Hohnhorst / Deutschland

#10

Post by Jan-Hendrik » 23 Aug 2007, 08:47

Now another question in regard of the Dvision Wünnenberg in early 1942...could that be that Scheidies was the Fhr. of the there mentioned Brigade (my friend found the concerning document in the KTB of Ia/SS-FHA in the BA Berlin)?

Jan-Hendrik

User avatar
Dieter Zinke
In memoriam
Posts: 9841
Joined: 02 Dec 2003, 10:12
Location: Koblenz / germany

#11

Post by Dieter Zinke » 23 Aug 2007, 10:45

Jan-Hendrik wrote:Now another question in regard of the Dvision Wünnenberg in early 1942...could that be that Scheidies was the Fhr. of the there mentioned Brigade (my friend found the concerning document in the KTB of Ia/SS-FHA in the BA Berlin)?

Jan-Hendrik
SS-Brigadeführer und Generalmajor der Polizei Alfred Wünnenberg:
22.04.1942 - 01.05.1942 Führer der “Gruppe Wünnenberg“ (“Kampfgruppe SS-Pol.Div.“) of the Heeresgruppe Nord, subordinated to the I. Armeekorps of the 18. Armee

Source:
-Tessin, Georg: Verbände und Truppen der deutschen Wehrmacht und Waffen-SS im Zweiten Weltkrieg 1939-1945, Band 17 (Register der Namensverbände; ff), bearbeitet auf Grund der Unterlagen des Bundesarchiv-Militärarchivs von Brün Meyer, Biblio Verlag, Bissendorf 2002

Dieter Z.

Jan-Hendrik
Member
Posts: 8695
Joined: 11 Nov 2004, 13:53
Location: Hohnhorst / Deutschland

#12

Post by Jan-Hendrik » 05 Sep 2007, 19:42

It seems my guess regarding Scheidies was right, see FdW...

Jan-Hendrik

jmf
Member
Posts: 4
Joined: 24 Dec 2007, 07:50
Location: USA

#13

Post by jmf » 21 Jan 2008, 07:37

I have a copy of the Geschichte der 258. ID, Teil I, and also did a few research on the 258.ID.
The I/127. IR was actually involved in the combats of the 12-15 of May 1940, which took place south of Forbach (France), ahead of the Maginot-Line, and while providing support to the 258.ID.
The battalion took over several posts between the villages of Morsbach and Folkling during 3 days of close fighting and heavy bombing (the 258. ID had 130 KIA overall).

Enough action in my opinion for medals and awards...

Rgds,

JM

User avatar
Bernd R
Member
Posts: 4637
Joined: 01 Feb 2006, 16:12
Location: Bavaria, Germany

#14

Post by Bernd R » 21 Jan 2008, 14:49

JM,

thanks! for that additional info and confirmation about the subordination to the 258. Inf.Div. in the early stages of the French Campaign.

Could well be also that those actions in may 1940 resulted in the award of the EK 1 "only".

Bernd

Baldrick
Member
Posts: 62
Joined: 01 Jun 2006, 17:31
Location: Germany

Re: Franz Scheidies KC as Kdr Inf.Rgt 127 ?

#15

Post by Baldrick » 30 Apr 2008, 23:33

@ Bernd R

maybe of interest:

A few days after the start of the war in 1939, III./IR 22 under the command of OTL Scheidies made an successful attack on the Gora Kamienska bastion which was part of the polish border fortifications.
In 1940 III./IR 22 published a report with an analysis of this battle. In addition to that Scheidies was known as a very skillful training officier.
Maybe Scheidies was choosen for IR 127 because of his experiences in this kind of warfare.

Source:

N.N.: Kampf um befestigte Feldstellungen. Bericht über den Kampf an der Gora-Kamienska, III. Bataillon Infanterie Regiment 22.

All the best,

Ralf

Post Reply

Return to “The Dieter Zinke Axis Biographical Research Section”