21. Panzer-Division 's Somua MCG mortar carriers

[Kelvin]

Hi, I am looking for the number of Somua MCG 8cm mortar carriers in 21. Panzer-Division in June 1944, I cannot find it in June 1 OOB chart, did anyone know if she had this vehicles and how many she had ? Thank.

[Sam Wren]

Are you referring to the Reihenwerfers?

[Kelvin]

Hello, Sam, type error, I know the number of Reihenwerfer, I mean P-107 8.14cm mortar carriers in Panzergrenadier battalion, a variant of sd.kfz.251/2. Division OOB chart only shows the number of P-107 3.7 cm vehicles, not mortar carrier. Weapon list shows division possessed 64 x French 81.4 cm mortar. Do you have informtion from other sources ? Thank

[Sam Wren]

Where did you hear the Division had 64 French Brandt 8.1 cm mortars?

Each Reihenwerfer (Somua MCG) had 16 Brandt 8.1 cm mortar tubes and since each Pz.Gren.Rgt. had 4 Reihenwerfers, that is a total of 64 tubes per Regiment or 128 tubes just for those two Regiments. Throw in the rest of the Division and that adds up to way more than just 64 mortars.

According to Kortenhaus's book, the 1., 2. & 3. Companies of both of the Pz.Gren.Regts. each had two SPW with 8cm mortars, so that is a total of 6 per Regt. or 12 for both. It is safe to assume that the SPW were Unic P 107s and it is more than likely that the mortars were French rather than German, but I have no idea where Kortenhaus obtained the information for this appendix (Ausstattung der 21.Panzerdivision mit gepanzerten Fahrzeugen und Hauptwaffen am 5. Juni 1944).

Elements of the Pz.Aufkl.Abt. 21 and Panzerpio. Bn. 200 also had mortars but I have no way of knowing if they were also French Brandts. The 10./Pz.Art.Regt. 155 had 2 Reihenwerfers which may have been of the 20 tube variety (on Somua MCL) but I have no hard corroboration of which version they had.

[Kelvin]

Where did you hear the Division had 64 French Brandt 8.1 cm mortars?

Each Reihenwerfer (Somua MCG) had 16 Brandt 8.1 cm mortar tubes and since each Pz.Gren.Rgt. had 4 Reihenwerfers, that is a total of 64 tubes per Regiment or 128 tubes just for those two Regiments. Throw in the rest of the Division and that adds up to way more than just 64 mortars.

According to Kortenhaus's book, the 1., 2. & 3. Companies of both of the Pz.Gren.Regts. each had two SPW with 8cm mortars, so that is a total of 6 per Regt. or 12 for both. It is safe to assume that the SPW were Unic P 107s and it is more than likely that the mortars were French rather than German, but I have no idea where Kortenhaus obtained the information for this appendix (Ausstattung der 21.Panzerdivision mit gepanzerten Fahrzeugen und Hauptwaffen am 5. Juni 1944).

Elements of the Pz.Aufkl.Abt. 21 and Panzerpio. Bn. 200 also had mortars but I have no way of knowing if they were also French Brandts. The 10./Pz.Art.Regt. 155 had 2 Reihenwerfers which may have been of the 20 tube variety (on Somua MCL) but I have no hard corroboration of which version they had.

Hello, Sam, regarding the number of French 8.14 cm mortar, I received from divisonal monthly report on June 1 1944, apart from status report and OOB chart, there are another page for breakdown list for German and captured weapon, mostly were light arms like karabiner, MG, SMG or mortar, in captured weapon list, it lists 64 French 8.14 cm mortar.

I have Kortenhaus book, but It seem his only available data is monthly report on June 1 1944, it is what I and you already have. If in accordance with normal Pz division, one PG battalion should have 2 x sdkfz.251/2, so perhap Kortenhaus just made a speculation or assumption on that.

[Alanmccoubrey]

Sam, I don't trust Kortenhaus on this particular subject. Perigault in his book makes no mention of any mortars in the battalions, motorised or armoured, neither do either Zetterling or Nafziger. I have never seen any photographs of an armoured P107 fitted as a mortar carrier nor have I read of such a thing.

[Sam Wren]

I don't trust Kortenhaus on this either, but there is documentation of this version being made in Spielberger's Beutepanzer book as it appears in the list of vehicle types created on the Unic P 107 chassis (Pg. 97):

"The P 107 light tractor (identification number U 304 (f) was used in the role of:
- Medium ammunition carrier
- Light artillery tractors
- Light armored personnel carriers (unarmored) with MG trailer (60 vehicles with
Brigade West) *)
- Recovery vehicles (provisional)
- light armored personnel carriers **) (closed and open armored superstructure), platoon
leader vehicle with 3,7-cm-Pak 36
- self-propelled gun carriage (partially-armored) for 2-cm-Flak 38
- self-propelled gun carriage (armored) for 2-cm-Flak 38 (72 vehicles with
Brigade West). 360˚ traverse.
- Armored Mortar carrier
- Armored ambulance
- Radio car (armored)
- Signals vehicle"

Whether these were used by 21.PD is open to speculation though. There are photos of most of these vehicle types but I have never seen one of the mortar carrier.

[Kelvin]

I don't trust Kortenhaus on this either, but there is documentation of this version being made in Spielberger's Beutepanzer book as it appears in the list of vehicle types created on the Unic P 107 chassis (Pg. 97):

"The P 107 light tractor (identification number U 304 (f) was used in the role of:
- Medium ammunition carrier
- Light artillery tractors
- Light armored personnel carriers (unarmored) with MG trailer (60 vehicles with
Brigade West) *)
- Recovery vehicles (provisional)
- light armored personnel carriers **) (closed and open armored superstructure), platoon
leader vehicle with 3,7-cm-Pak 36
- self-propelled gun carriage (partially-armored) for 2-cm-Flak 38
- self-propelled gun carriage (armored) for 2-cm-Flak 38 (72 vehicles with
Brigade West). 360˚ traverse.
- Armored Mortar carrier
- Armored ambulance
- Radio car (armored)
- Signals vehicle"

Whether these were used by 21.PD is open to speculation though. There are photos of most of these vehicle types but I have never seen one of the mortar carrier.

Hello, Sam, Thank for your data.

21. Panzer divison only had 18 x P-107 2 cm Flak vehicles, another 54 vehicles location ? Do you know that ? Or Flak Abteilung had 15 x SP Flak, did they are P-107 or sdkfz.10/4 ? Thank

[Alanmccoubrey]

Sam, I had quite forgotten about that list on Page 97 ! If you look at the two footnotes that go with it though the only mention they make of mortars is of them being loaded on to the unarmoured P107 in Brigade West. I do sometimes wonder if Spielberger actually lists the contracted number of vehicles rather than those actually produced. Anyway 21 PD's PzGren Regiments don't appear to have been issued with single tube mortars in the same way as normal units.