3 men German team

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Panzergrenadier2967
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3 men German team

Postby Panzergrenadier2967 » 01 Dec 2017 23:57

somebody can say what germans did with 3 men? for example MG team, anti tank etc. and what weapons they carried? did an officer and twon men form a patrol? all helps are appreciated

Panzergrenadier2967
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Re: 3 men German team

Postby Panzergrenadier2967 » 02 Dec 2017 22:53

an MG team was composed with an obergrefeiter or gefreiter and two soldiers (K98 and MG42)?

Gary Kennedy
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Re: 3 men German team

Postby Gary Kennedy » 03 Dec 2017 09:58

It does depend on the type of LMG team and the time period. In the pre-war Infantry Regiment the Rifle Squad was 13 strong and the LMG team had four men (with 3 pistols and 1 rifle). In the revised 10-man Squad the LMG team dropped to three men (gunner and assistant each with pistol and a third man with rifle). When the Squad was trimmed back to 9 men my understanding is that it was the third member of the LMG team who was cut, leaving a gunner (pistol) and assistant (rifle). Panzer Grenadier Squads when issued with two LMGs tended to be just a gunner and assistant per LMG team within the Squad.

I can't say offhand that I know the German Army used a three man detachment for a large number of different roles. The composition of a patrol I think would depend a great deal on what the patrol was undertaking and what personnel were available to form it for example. When there were set teams for infantry anti-tank weapons (anti-tank rifles or the later Panzerschreck) from memory they were normally just a gunner and assistant, with an NCO overseeing a number of teams rather than just one.

Gary

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Re: 3 men German team

Postby Panzergrenadier2967 » 03 Dec 2017 11:45

thanks. but in 1943-44 does any MG team had 3 men? with one MG?

yantaylor
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Re: 3 men German team

Postby yantaylor » 03 Dec 2017 14:57

Sorry to add to your woes Pzg, here is a KStN for a 1944 rifle company;

http://www.wwiidaybyday.com/kstn/kstn131n1mai44.htm

Regards
Yan.

Panzergrenadier2967
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Re: 3 men German team

Postby Panzergrenadier2967 » 03 Dec 2017 19:48

yantaylor wrote:Sorry to add to your woes Pzg, here is a KStN for a 1944 rifle company;

http://www.wwiidaybyday.com/kstn/kstn131n1mai44.htm

Regards
Yan.


come on! it's only a question! not a threat. :D

Panzergrenadier2967
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Re: 3 men German team

Postby Panzergrenadier2967 » 03 Dec 2017 19:49

in WW1 and WW2 films we see often three soldiers in a MG team (rarely two) so i asked.


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Re: 3 men German team

Postby Panzergrenadier2967 » 03 Dec 2017 19:56

In the film "To Hell and Back", for example, Audie Murphy in Volturno battle atttacked several MGs and they show in that film usually that there are two men and in one three soldiers in the foxholes (MG nests).

yantaylor
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Re: 3 men German team

Postby yantaylor » 03 Dec 2017 20:28

Pzg, I would say that the basic MG/34 or MG/42, when used in the LMG mode would be crewed by two men.
I am not sure about this, but didn't the German's use their LMGs in a different way to every other country?
Didn't the infantry squad have to provide protection to the LMG team?

Yan.

Gary Kennedy
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Re: 3 men German team

Postby Gary Kennedy » 04 Dec 2017 21:18

Yan reminded me that, in the German handling of the Rifle Squad, the NCO would principally stay with the MG team, though I recall he was expected to lead the close assault. I think there's a general rule of thumb that a 'light support weapon' (as in a bipod LMG, 50mm-ish mortar, etc) works well with a gunner, a loader and a third man to observe and direct/correct fire, which role would normally be undertaken by an NCO of some stripe. So if you have the gunner and loader for an LMG operating under the direction of the Squad leader, that might be considered the 3-man team of the original post. There would be a lot of real life factors to get in the way of such things, and there are numerous examples of crew served weapons being handled by individuals in certain, usually somewhat extreme, circumstances (and on occasion in direct contravention of the manufacturer's instructions).

Gary

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Re: 3 men German team

Postby Panzergrenadier2967 » 04 Dec 2017 21:58

Gary Kennedy wrote:Yan reminded me that, in the German handling of the Rifle Squad, the NCO would principally stay with the MG team, though I recall he was expected to lead the close assault. I think there's a general rule of thumb that a 'light support weapon' (as in a bipod LMG, 50mm-ish mortar, etc) works well with a gunner, a loader and a third man to observe and direct/correct fire, which role would normally be undertaken by an NCO of some stripe. So if you have the gunner and loader for an LMG operating under the direction of the Squad leader, that might be considered the 3-man team of the original post. There would be a lot of real life factors to get in the way of such things, and there are numerous examples of crew served weapons being handled by individuals in certain, usually somewhat extreme, circumstances (and on occasion in direct contravention of the manufacturer's instructions).

Gary


thanks for your help. perhaps i think that there was not always a NCO but also a grefeiter or obergefreiter. so they have K98 and pistols (and MG with rounds). so about 45 k98 rounds, 16 of P38 and about 250 of MG42

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Re: 3 men German team

Postby Panzergrenadier2967 » 05 Dec 2017 20:10

How many MG rounds they carried in battle? 500? 1000? I've read that sometimes 3000 rounds were brought in battle

yantaylor
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Re: 3 men German team

Postby yantaylor » 05 Dec 2017 20:21

Pzg, I don't know if it tells you about the quantity of ammo brought into battle, but you may find something in here that will help you in your quests;

http://usacac.army.mil/cac2/cgsc/carl/wwIIspec/number09.pdf

Gary Kennedy
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Re: 3 men German team

Postby Gary Kennedy » 07 Dec 2017 12:40

Ammunition availability is something I was looking at a while back, and didn't really get back to.

Basic load I've seen referenced for the 10-man Squad was five 50-round drums and three ammunition boxes (300 rounds each) for a total of 1150 rounds. The ammunition allocation for an LMG in a Rifle Squad looks to have been 2450, plus 500 rounds each in reserve in Regt and Div columns. Below is a link to a thread I started with some good replies;

viewtopic.php?f=71&t=229070&p=2082505&hilit=gary+kennedy#p2082505

Gary


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