Tigers and the 5:1 myth an analysis of Normandy combat operations involving Tigers. Chapter 2 assessing kills.

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Tigers and the 5:1 myth an analysis of Normandy combat operations involving Tigers. Chapter 2 assessing kills.

#1

Post by Christianmunich » 13 Dec 2018, 18:53

[Link to second part](https://www.reddit.com/r/TankPorn/comme ... _of_tiger/)

#***Chapter 2 Part 1***

To those of you who found this post, after the cultists got marching orders and rightfully downvoted this thread into oblivion where it belongs, I congratulate you.

Gather around HanneloreHamburg has knowledge to share.

This is the second “chapter” of my series about Tiger combat in Normandy. The following links bring you to the first parts where I discussed the combat impact of Tigers which has given us a first glimpse of how manipulated the recent revisionist view of the Tiger is.[Part1](https://www.reddit.com/r/TankPorn/comme ... of_combat/)
[Part2](https://www.reddit.com/r/TankPorn/comme ... alysis_of/)
[Part3](https://www.reddit.com/r/TankPorn/comme ... th_part_3/)
[Part4](https://www.reddit.com/r/TankPorn/comme ... tmann_and/)
[Part5](https://www.reddit.com/r/TankPorn/comme ... ble_going/) As some kind of initial trigger to this “research” served the age-old question about the 5:1 myth, long before there were actual Tigers prowling around, even before humans discovered the fire we were enamoured with the question did they really destroy 5 Shermans/Tanks for every Tiger? The leaders of the revisionism have told you time and time again that this is BS and only a history channel watching fool would fall for this obvious nonsense. If you dared to believe this myth the cult would find you. They would come for you, there was no hiding, there still isn't. And with them, they would bring their most powerful weapon, evidence. Just kidding they would downvote you.

Now we come to the part that many have waited for, actual frickin research about the 5:1 myth. Yes, you heard right, going strongly against the current style of WW2 history I don't just claim something I will provide you with some evidence so you can decide for yourself.

***Methods:***

So what did I do?

As explained earlier I have taken the “biggest” Tiger fights/skirmishes in Normandy and analysed them. Now I have focused on the kills inflicted by Tigers. In contrast to for example Steven Zaloga I hold myself to a far higher standard when it comes to evidence and I believe this here to be the most thorough research of Tiger kill claims in existence. While Zaloga and others are known to simply post kill claims without any kind of corroboration, I tried to verify kills.

How?

Verifying a kill 100% is close to impossible for nearly all tank kills happening in WW2. Exceptions like the infamous Elsdorf Pershing Tiger encounter are rare and most details of WW2 are lost to history. For example the death of Wittmann is still debated with several units being brought into contention. Ekins appear to be likely, but you never know.

I used several criteria which are listed in ascending order according to their importance.

* Allied losses at this time in the same area. Without verification of losses no awarded kill. At no point exceed the kills the verifiable losses of the Allied units in this area. Never.
Allied losses were corroborated 100% by Allied documents or with secondary literature citing Allied primary sources.

* Tiger claims for those losses either in form of primary sources or from the compilation of Schneider.

* Assigning kill claims due to war diary or testimony of Allied soldiers.

* Allocating kills to involved units. Ruling out other German units.

* Allocating kills by area and opportunity.

I am very confident in my reasoning for every awarded kill. I ask anybody who challenges a verified kill to post a ***more likely*** explanation for the Allied loss. I consider all awarded kills to be the most probable explanation. “Could be somebody else” doesn't cut it here.

What is meant by a kill and how is this relevant to the 5:1? As I have explained earlier I consider write-offs as the best measurement for everything combat related. If possible I tried to estimate the direct write-offs if this was not possible the ***knocked-out*** vehicles would be counted and later adjusted by average repair rates to get a final write-off number for Allied tanks.

It is important to note that I only counted kills that I considered reasonably verified this means several Tiger claims were discarded due to lack of evidence and not due to being suspicious. For example, having Tiger kills in an area with enemy losses is not necessarily enough if another sizeable German force was fighting there and no other evidence exists. Another clarification on what I consider a “kill”, this issue came up mostly due to Villers Bocage discussion. I consider all tanks “lost” due to enemy actions kills for this particular unit. If a tank troop gets engaged by Tigers and loses a tank which then encourages others to bail out of their tanks I considered every tank a kill and frankly everything else would be ridiculous. M10s are not included.

My first posts here were pretty iron clade and the cult even after sending their most powerful zealots was forced to default to “I don't believe your sources, you have no bibliography”. After showing that the primary Sherman revisionist Steven Zaloga used no citation in most of his books, the cult fell silent. But they have a point, there is no reason to not have an even higher standard than most contemporary historians. So I tried to be more “academic” with my sources even tho it is time-consuming and I hate it. I started adding the references but it is tedious as hell and I post this here before I am done with the references and will add them later if our saviour Rommel gives me the strength to do it.

I used a good amount of pictures as fluff, please understand that the pictures, for the most part, are not evidence and simply offer some interesting illustration, so take the captions with a grain of salt. I labelled them to the best of my knowledge but there will be mistakes.

Some points to eventually attempted rebuttals. After having spent some time in the forums I noticed how vicious the average person on the internet becomes once his ideas are challenged and refuted. Happens in politics happens in niche forums about history. The biggest problem I experienced are the various forms of faulty arguments that cost a lot of time to debunk. I have found that I am unable to not respond to bad arguments and it took far more time out of my leisure time than I wished so I will try a new approach in dealing with dishonest counter-arguments. This post here is very big and complex and offers material for nitpicking.

A common argument will be undoubtedly: "This unimportant factoid is not fully correct after this book that was published in 1913 in a French gas station toilet, therefore, your entire post is incorrect. So far so good. What I will do is present the honest reader with a simple line of argumentation against my claims.

***If*** my conclusions are verifiable incorrect then the person who wishes to refute my arguments should easily be able to lay out a more plausible cause for Allied losses than the Tigers I have awarded the kills. I myself attempted this for all the claims awarded by me as my own way of challenging my findings. I am confident. So to those wishing to learn stuff here keep an eye on the "rebuttals" that will try to discredit the findings without any hard evidence. You will quickly see how much arguments are merely noise without substance.

The British forces operated on UTC+2.

#***Battle of Villers Bocage***

As one of the most researched minor battles of WW2 this skirmish has plenty of sources so I will not go into major detail here. This is an exception. The other battles have more effort put into it.

Schneider puts the British losses at 26 tanks but makes no direct claim if those all belonged to the Tigers [0]

Trying to avoid wasting time researching what was already researched extensively I will only compile citations given in the Wikipedia article, the article has “featured” status so I consider this sufficient. I have not listed those books in the bibliography, so you might wanna check wiki for more info.

5 tanks were destroyed when the engagement started two of those by Wittmann[Taylor p 19]

2 further, Cromwell, two ops. Cromwell by Wittmann himself [Forty, Tailor]

Forty states 13-14 destroyed by the Tigers in the Morning.

At point 213 the remaining British forces had 9 tanks including one OP [Forty page 103]

This group then was abandoned after getting attacked and shelled by Tigers [ Taylor 56 ][1]. I assume all 9 tanks were lost.

Forty claims 15 Cromwells alone were lost at point 213. [Forty 76]. In total this would make somewhere between 20 and 25 tanks lost during the Tiger action in the morning. At least 2 were command tanks which I will exclude. 20 tanks seems reasonable, which includes mostly Cromwells at least 2 Firefly and some Stuarts. Overall tank losses estimates vary between 23-27. All British tank losses were likely full write-offs. The war diary of the 4th County of London Yeomanry gives 27 lost tanks and a staggering 100 casualties[2]. The Wehrmacht held possession of the battlefield and made plenty of photos, the tanks were all write-offs. Possible repetition in the pictures but here are some [1](https://imgur.com/a/XiNWHUP)[2](https://imgur.com/a/KWzJZS4)[3](https://imgur.com/a/bp5MaQ2)[4](https://imgur.com/a/Gbk5GUn)[5](https://imgur.com/a/hNgJC65)[6](https://imgur.com/a/IUcSXiM)

The detailed research of this battle together with the omnipresent problem of uncertainty resulted in ongoing arguing over minor details. The Wiki article might not be the perfect description of the historic event but the loss of ~20+ tanks to the Tigers of the 101st is out of the question even if the meticulous details are still debated.

20 kills, 20 of those write-offs

#***Operation Epsom***

***26th June***

Schneider claims 3 tanks knocked out near Grainville and “several” near Mouen [3]. He furthermore claims the tanks near Mouen belonged to the 23rd Hussars.

Considerable British losses in this area and time can be found in the 11th Armoured division and its armoured regiments. A total of [26 tank casualties](https://imgur.com/a/95soLdY) [4] were reported including light casualties and M5s. The 9th RTR C squadron reported casualties after leaving Cheux to the South and a total of 5 write-offs.[5][6]. According to Saunders they “left eight of their seventeen Churchills burning on the battlefield[7]

The 23rd Hussars lost 3 knocked out and one damaged south of Cheux[8]. Napier attributes this to Panzer Ivs but those tanks were positioned further West and had engaged the 2nd F&F. Reynolds states at least 4 Shermans destroyed by Tiger[9] and attributes the Churchills to 21st Panzer + Tigers. Cromwells of the Recon regiment were also knocked out in close proximity to Grainville.

Several German sources attribute the rebuffing of the 23rd to Tiger tanks[10]. Kurt Meyer claims two tanks were knocked out by his infantry in close combat.

[Here](https://imgur.com/a/FN0uduw)[11] you can see a map of the area with ***rough*** positions of the German units and area of British losses. The 2nd F&F losses can likely be attributed to HJ infantry and Panzer IVs. The 23rd Hussars and 9th RTR were likely partially engaged by Tigers. Overall their losses amounted to roughly 10 tanks in this area. The Tigers claimed ~6 and this appears to be reasonable. Little evidence to deny those claims. I would attribute 5 to the Tigers including 3 write-offs. The rest of the British casualties were likely due to infantry and or some long range fire from Panzer IV.

As some mild supporting evidence I have found an aerial picture of the area East of Cheux and I believe I might have found [5 Churchill wrecks](https://imgur.com/a/uKVFjhF). I am no expert on aerial pictures so I am uncertain. *edit: Those are Panthers according to user mkenny. Maybe somebody else wants to chime in.*

5 kills, 3 write-offs.

***28th June***

Schneider claims 8 knockouts in the area of Grainville[12]. Agte indicates 9[13].

There are some issues with the data, the Tigers around Rauray got a good amount of coverage from the other side, mainly by Stuart Hill[]. It appears likely that Hill got the date wrong because his text indicates that several Tigers were lost on the 26th, this is highly unlikely. On the German side, the Tiger losses are described on the 28th. Two British units suffered [casualties](https://imgur.com/a/0NXREgf) [14] on the 28th in the given area, those losses more than cover the Tiger claims but there is a major issue, later in the day counterattacks by German tank formations occurred in this area[15]. Without access to the war diaries of the 4/7th and 31st TB I can't connect the claims to losses.

I am certain the Tigers knocked some out there but still: Zero claims corroborated.

#***Operation Jupiter 10th July***

The arrival of the 102nd, the companies of this unit have varying degrees of info about them published, while the 2nd company is described in detail, the others are not.

For the 10th Schneider claims 3 and “several”. The “several” appear to be from the first company which has all info gathered passively.

The enemy casualties likely happened in the 31st tank brigade with its two regiments the 7th and 9th RTR. The unit suffered considerable damage on this day and unit diaries and testimony connect losses to the Tigers. This [map](https://imgur.com/a/7XDqw) was created by the “official” history site of the 9th RTR sadly the site appears to be down for revamping now, many personal recollections and unit diaries were hosted there. As you can see the clashes between the Tigers and the Churchills were considered pivotal for the battle.

The 31st TB reported 33 Churchill and 3 M5, the 9th RTR suffered 65 crew casualties[16] the heaviest hit they endured during the campaign. According to Reynolds 39 Churchills were lost[17] The 4th AB had 17 tank casualties. More than [50 tank casualties](https://imgur.com/a/DX1fYFR) [18] this day for the involved British units. A considerable amount of other tank-like vehicles could have been reasonably claimed as tanks by the Germans, plenty of M10s of 86th and 91st AT regiment and crocodiles of the 79th division. Especially the M10s are said to have had considerable [losses](https://imgur.com/a/Z9733uP)[19]. I have counted 22 KIA soldiers from the 86th alone just for Jupiter, the losses must have been heavy. While M10s are not counted in this post they are reasonable claims for the Germans, especially the 12th SS and thus make the entire thing more complicated to untangle.

First British claim of Tiger kills is the testimony of a British M10 crewman who describes getting called in to defeat a Tiger that ko'ed 4 Churchills[20][21]. This is an interesting piece of information, the tank was likely the Tiger of Endemann who was reported missing, furthermore, the comms of the tank were out so those knock-outs could not have been reported by the Tiger. If those 4 casualties happened they likely happened to the 1st company that was skirmishing on the hilltop.

British forces that were supported by the 9th RTR advanced into Maltot but soon reported the incoming counter attack of German infantry supported by Tigers. The unit diary notes “the imperative to withdraw” in the face of the German attack one of the squadrons was down to 4 operational tanks[22]. According to the Hampshire war diary, the counter-attack already cost 9 tanks[23]. From the other side, we have strong corroboration by Willie Fey who reports the attack on Maltot with 4 Tigers. Fey's credibility is in question but the records of both sides align.

The 7th RTR approach over the hill was rebuffed in part by the 102nd which is explained as the problem when the 9th RTR as well got under fire from the southern slopes. Most of those kills would be claimed by the 1st company which has no records. One Churchill sqd lost 6 in the brawls on the hill and the 7th RTR fell back. The 7th RTR reports [combat and trouble with dug-in Tigers and 8 losses](https://imgur.com/a/uI6w1qA)[24] to my knowledge no Panthers were present there.

The 4th AB operated mostly between Maltot and Hill 112 and fought on the hilltop as well[25].

The biggest claimer of the day were the Panzer IVs of the 12th SS which claimed a whopping 32 enemy tanks[26]. Apparently, most of those were claimed north of Maltot and around [Eterville](https://imgur.com/a/smVjEN6). This partially the same region where the 2nd company Tigers fought and where the 9th RTR suffered heavy casualties. At least three appear to have operated on hill 112 and inflicted losses[Saunders Odon]. Untangling those claims is close to impossible. A wildcard here are the Stugs of the LSSAH which joined the fighting as well from the East. Claims from infantry with pak exist for Eterville [27]

There aren't very many more direct connections. The most direct one would be the lone Tiger knocked out by the M10. The Churchill losses can certainly be connected to the Tigers but the actual number is hard to estimate, the Hill was full with the infantry of both sides and continuously pounded by artillery. Saunders appears to put great emphasis on Tigers and mentions their impact quite frequently but this is rather circumstantial evidence. The Frundsberg infantry was forced to retreat early in the morning and it is questionable how many of their anti-tank guns remained operational and in position. Saunders claims 7th RTR suffered casualties to Panzerfaust and pak while approaching 112 [28]. The most likely causes for the losses are without a doubt the II./SS-Panzerregiment 12 and the 102nd.

I am going with about 9 kills, in those are about 3 Fey kills in Maltot and about 6 from the hill area and fire down the slopes. This is less than 20% of the Allied casualties but connecting losses to specific units is very tough. The Tigers could without a doubt have scored more, like the reported fire on the 9th RTR from the southern slopes and the described burning Churchills which ventured over the ridge[29], where the Tigers would have been situated.

9 kills

***11th July***

For the 11th Schneider gives 10 claims[30].

The 4th AB reported 21 casualties. The casualties of the 31st TB are unknown but the commander of the 4th AB claimed many Churchill were lost [31]. If double-counting occurred is unknown.

The evidence is very flimsy. The Tiger claims for the 3 on the hill come from the testimony of German, this apparently gets supported by JJ How who also claims 5 Shermans were lost there and reiterated by Hargraves[32] how Tigers successfully engaged enemy armor. I have not found evidence for the claim of 7 by the 1 company. Despite having corresponding losses on the other side I am discarding all of them. To weak connection.

3 kills.

#***Operation Stack 11th July***

With Stack, we have an easier time to verify the claims. Schneider, while referencing von Rosen, claims the 503rd knocked out 14 British tanks. This claim includes 2 captured. One has photographic [evidence](https://imgur.com/a/4Y46x)). The rest can be reasonably corroborated via British unit [diaries](https://imgur.com/a/2txPC1L).

>0735 hrs. By this time there was only one tank of the A Sqn Troops at the X roads in action. ***The other 9 having been put out of action in the previous engagements and set on fire***. One scout car lost. The majority of the crews bailed out and made their way on foot back to LONGEUVAL, escorted by the remaining tank.[33]

Other war [diaries](https://imgur.com/a/Z99jOyy) of the infantry support this description of the events[34]. The corps diary specifically states that 9 were knocked out by Tigers.

This discrepancy with the claim of 14 could be partially explained by 2 Stuart tanks that also became casualties. In total the 33rd Brigade had 13 tank casualties. Von Rosen appears to overclaim despite his substantial success, the diary of the Panzergruppe West only reported 11 tanks destroyed.

9 kills, 9 write-offs

#***Operation Goodwood 18th July***

What about Goodwood? Those who read my other posts noticed that Goodwood is missing despite me including it in my opening. The reason for this is simple, the data is lacking. Schneider gave a whopping 40 kill claims for the 503rd alone which makes it the highest kill claim for the campaign but I was unable to find any good evidence about the unit that likely made those claims. This would be the 2nd company which moved North towards Troarn. I have found ***zero*** information about those battles there, the British Armoured Brigade there indeed suffered losses but I was unable to find any good information.

The same is true for losses of Tigers which were heavy but according to Schneider mostly due to non tank reasons. But there is considerable debate about a group of Tigers that was supposedly lost to FF but some say those were actually Shermans. Here as well I was unable to find conclusive evidence while I tend to think those were actually lost to Shermans.

Since I was unable to find any battle descriptions of the 2nd company I simply dropped the battle even tho the day saw 40+ claims from Tigers apparently. Please add any information that you might have I would like to include this battle.

#***Operation Bluecoat***

***2nd August***

Schneider claims 22 tanks knocked out[35]. Schneiders remarks are ambiguous and likely based on a mistake. In his book, *Tigers in Normandy* Schneider mistakes the recollections of Tiger commanders as two separate instances while those are actually the same. He describes the events of the 3rd August also on the 2nd.

Remember no direct info from the 1st company.

The engagements of the 2nd August were very atypical for the Normandy fighting, the British forces had relative freedom of movement and advanced nearly undisturbed. The Tigers of the 102nd were ordered towards Vire over Estry for a major counterstrike, their meeting with British tanks was unexpected.

The Tiger tanks came in contact with several regiments of the 11th Armoured division and took a heavy toll that led to a defensive shift of the British.

The 23rd Hussars suffered significant casualties in an ambush that was likely set by Tigers[36] [37][38], despite the identification of Panthers. Panthers operated around Estry. Losses of the 23rd Hussars can be verified by the war diary and the official history of the 23rd Hussars. The unit history claims all but 4 Shermans of A squadron were koed[39]. This would speak for massive losses but seems unlikely unless the unit was severely understrength. Napier claims “only” 5 losses in this ambush [40] Daglish a dozen and claimed A squadron was “crushed” by the Tigers[41]. Several authors describe combat with Panzerfaust wielding infantry and SPG earlier but mention no losses. The war diary does not list tank losses but reported 20 Shermans [struck of between](https://imgur.com/a/os9E1Hd) the 2nd and 11th August while combat happened until the 6-7 nearly half the strength and not including light losses[42]. According to Daglish 31 Shermans became casualties on the 2nd August for the 29th Armoured Brigade[43].

The other 2 units with Shermans in the 11th Armoured were the 2nd Fife and Forfar and the 3rd RTR.

The 2nd F&F reported no major combat and zero casualties [F&F War diary] but Daglish claims one Sherman ko'ed by a Tiger from long range fire.[44]

The 3RTR reported “trouble” and suffered several casualties in La Gd Bonfaits those were likely to Hohenstaufen Panthers. [45]

I made a rough [sketch](https://imgur.com/a/Q4TkoM0) of the combat on the 2nd which might give a general overview over the combat during Bluecoat and the location of the mentioned villages.

Daglish confirms a total of 14 direct Tiger kills, his opinion is based on British sources and not Germans sources. I think his tally is on the high side because he assumes 12 losses of A sqd I think about 10 is a reasonable estimate of Tiger kills. No actual claims from the 1st company are available. Against those tallies stands Napier who has “only” 6 kills. Napiers claims are based on 29th Brigade diaries[46], I have shown beyond doubt that the totals in the diaries don't all match up with last light numbers and can, therefore, be considered too low. Napier supports the 30 tank casualties for the day while he mentions only 9 specifically which illustrates the issue. Less than a third. Due to the retreat, a high degree of write-offs should be expected: ~8.

10 kills, 8 write-offs

***3rd August***

Tigers of the 2nd company attacked towards La Bistiere where it clashed with the 2nd Northampton Yeomanry. According to Schneider 16 tanks were claimed according to Napier 17[47][48]. Daglish gives 47 British losses for two days with only 14 Cromwells remaining[49]. His claims are suspect and disregarded by me. Of the Tiger claims 9 are directly verified by the unit [diary](https://imgur.com/a/3KRkMfO) of the British unit [50]. Napier implies a total of 11 casualties to the Tigers. While Napier lists the casualties as knocked-out and some merely damaged he later states 18 Cromwells were destroyed[51]. Given the retreat of the Cromwells it appears likely that most of those were non-recoverable. The first company which has no direct records surviving took part in fighting with the 23rd Hussars which at least sustained 4 casualties[52] while Daglish thinks the unit operated around Vire[53]. Furthermore, the 2nd Fife and Forfare was [likely in contact with the Tigers as well](https://imgur.com/a/txZXbI2) with at least one troop and the unit sustained losses as well.[54]

Overall given the strong verification, we can estimate about 13 knockouts. My reasoning for the additional losses is the chaos in the 2nd Northampton Yeomanry, the not existing records of the 1st and the kill claims of the 2nd company in the afternoon. Given Napiers claim of 18 ***destroyed*** tanks I would put the write-offs at ~ 10. According to a wastage document cited by Napier 9 Cromwells were considered destroyed with another 9 awaiting repairs ( which maybe includes not assessed )[55]. I have found further evidence that debunks this document thoroughly. British losses like in many battles were undercounted.

13 kills, 10 write-offs.

***4th August***

6 kill claims by Schneider [ 56] for the 2nd company. Those were claimed around La Bistiere where the Tiger hit the 2nd Northamptonshire Yeomanry the day before. Same with before the doings of the 1st company remain a mystery.

Not much is written about the 4th August, we know that British last light reports give 10 Sherman casualties for the day but this includes all three regiments. The only direct evidence I have found is again the unit diary of the 2nd Northamptonshire that reported recon parties to have been [shot up by Tigers](https://imgur.com/a/KsdebTn). I am uncertain about the nomenclature in this diary. It states that “one tp S.” was part of the group that was shot up. Normally a tp would refer to a tank troop.[57]

While I am certain that the Tigers inflicted casualties I am unable to pinpoint British losses and therefore can not corroborate claims. 0 kills

***6th August***

4 claims[58]. The Tigers were part of a mixed group that attacked positions of the 2nd Fife and Forfar and 23rd Hussars. The tank casualties were 17 ( 8 ko ). Daglish describes the losses as heavy and that one company had to be disbanded. The unit diary of the 2nd Fife and Forfar mentions two direct Tiger kills. The evidence of the teletype which will be evaluated later supports those claims.

2 kills

7th August:

One of the most disputed actions of Normandy campaign. A lone Tiger claimed 15 Shermans [59]. Some of the confusion is caused by mistakes in the recollections of the soldier and Schneiders carelessness when it came to copying them. Date and enemy units are wrong. The actual event, on the other hand, is easy to confirm. Teletype messages forwarded the kills for this period and not the wrongly claimed 8th August. Which German crews made the "kills" remains disputed.

The enemy units in question were two armoured regiments of the 11th Armoured Division. The 2nd Fife and Forefare and the 3rd RTR.

The 3rd Sherman unit did not partake in this skirmish, therefore, the Sherman losses should have been caused in those two regiments. The 11th Armored reported 23 Sherman casualties of which 16 were heavy ( knocked out ). The unit diaries of the Sherman units admit to [5 direct casualties](https://imgur.com/a/mLdi0td) ***all of those*** to Tigers. Both unit diaries report combat with Tigers at the position 7233 and [720345 respectively](https://imgur.com/a/XnEjoR2). Combat with other German units is reported but no problems are mentioned. This map shows the coordinates of the reported Tigers, they match the position of "Tiger hill" west of Chedenoelle like Daglish called it. The 2nd F&F even claimed the unit was reduced to only [25 Shermans on the road](https://imgur.com/a/4jag2Ud). . Massive claims of Tiger exactly were strong casualties were reported. [60][61]

Strong circumstantial evidence for the claims of the 6th and 7th, the teletype message of the 9th SS and all subordinated units gave kill claims for those two days. I don't have access to the original document or the source ( Tieke ) according to a forum post the message gave the following claims:

Unit|Claims|Notes ( by me )|
:--|:--|:--|
SS Pz Regt 9|7|Tank unit of the 9th SS|
102nd SS|20|Tigers|
2. SS Pz Pi. Btl 9|8||
K. Gr. Olboeter|6|12th SS Panthers claimed kills against US forces[ Hubert Meyer]|
SS-Pz AA 9|2||
Pz. Pi. 600|1|According to fey the unit was with the Tigers on this day|
Total:|44|Apparently 4 Tiger claims not included for a Total of 48 in this area over two days.|


Unit|6th|7th|Total|
:--|:--|:--|:--|
11th Armoured|17 (8 KO )|25 ( 17 KO )|42 ( 25 KO )|
6th Tank Brigade|~11 [Daglish]| |11|


We see a strong corroboration between German claims and kills. It is possible the Allied suffered more unknown losses in this area M10s for example or other units of the Guards. Assumed that no other German unit claimed kills in this area. The "light" losses are tricky they can be anything from a combat loss to a minor repair, attributing them to enemy action is risky. About 35 appear to be ko'ed while 6 German claims were against US forces in Vire. 42 claims against at least 35 losses. Especially interesting, the Tigers claimed more than half of all kills in the entire sector. Given the degree of accuracy of the sum of claims, we can assume good accuracy for the individual claims.

Offering no verdict on who claimed the Shermans I consider up to 12 tanks verified. This is no conservative view but I don't see the evidence against the claims. This might change if we learn that another unit had strong claims in this sector or British losses were reported too high until then the overall claims match too well with British admitted losses. One of the biggest "Tiger myths" in Normany turns out to be true like many others.

We also see that the Tiger claims for Bluecoat might be higher than actually claimed in books due to the missing records of the 1st company, Schneider and others claim “only” 19 tanks but the units apparently forwarded 24 claims.

12 kills

Summary Bluecoat.

37 kills could be connected. Of those roughly 18 should have been direct write-offs.

PART 2 coming. Totalize Tractable and total kill count.


[Chapter 2 Part 1](https://www.reddit.com/r/TankPorn/comme ... er_claims/)

#***Operation Totalize***

***8th August***

Schneider claims 7 knock outs versus Polish tanks and "several" versus Canadian [Schneider SS 209]. Claims on Canadian tanks are supported by Hart[hart]

The heavy skirmish around St. Aignan is not in doubt, neither are the very high [Polish losses](http://scholars.wlu.ca/cgi/viewcontent. ... ontext=cmh) [64][65][66]. Allocating the "kills" is the difficult part.

The area where the Polish forces got decimated was defended by the Begleitcompany with the Panzerjägerabteilung 12 ( 5 tanks ) and some tanks from the Waldemüller KG. When the Polish forces emerged behind St Aigan into open field they got engaged on by Panzerjäger Ivs and Tigers and lost 26[67]. The Panzerjäger forces "only" claimed 18 of those[68], which leaves enough for the Tigers. The Panzerjäger company claimed 29 for the entire day for the loss of one. The Polish forces in this sector lost a total of 40 tanks during their first combat with German forces in Normandy. A Canadian report shows 31 tank losses for the Polish forces but this could be tanks that required full replacement. Of particular interest is the claim of 18 tanks during the ambush of Polish forces. Several sources suggest 26 Polish tanks lost in that ambush, the 7 claims of the Tigers align with that. There is no evidence suggesting this claim to be significantly incorrect.

7 kills

##***The 9th August, destruction of Worthington force and the mauling of the FG***

Here first a contemporary [map](imgur.com/a/QFVKh) of the area. Notice the Caen-Falaise road on the left and how it goes through Quesnay woods. The action of the day happened mostly north of Quesnay, to the east and west. Here a [map](imgur.com/a/kiRuR) showing the Canadian and Polish movements of the day.

The British Columbia regiment reported the loss of 44 [Shermans](https://imgur.com/a/VePCj) on the 9th August. [69]

The Foot Guards trying to move towards points 195 in the afternoon:

The unit gets caught once they deploy into the open fields north-west of Quesnay a total of 26 tanks are lost[70][71

A total of 70 Shermans lost in the relevant sector

***Assessing German claims***

The 9th of August is difficult to untangle because two Tiger units operated in the same area and they trickled in at different times, the issue gets even more confusing because most of the Tiger tanks were subordinated to the 12th SS Panzerregiment, which means the claims were tallied together.

Szamvebers book *Waffen SS armour in Normandy* compiled surviving kill claims for all armoured units of the 12th SS Hitleryouth. He also has claims for this period but they get increasingly contradicting. He claims for the 9th that the entire regiment claimed a total of ***78***[72]. His split is weird he gives 24 for the Panzer IV 5 for the Panthers and 44 for the Tigers. There are issues with this. Szamvebers only has direct kill claims for the Panthers, the rest appears to be his conjecture based on loss data of the BCR of 44 Shermans. None of the books featuring the German point of view mention any Panzer IV in action with claims. Also interesting Szamvebers claim only includes the 3 Tigers which moved out with the Panthers, nothing of the other Tigers. Furthermore, on another page Szamweber writes that the Panthers and Tigers knocked-out 30 tanks[73], this likely corresponds with the group that attacked towards Hill 140, this would be roughly the numbers of tanks on the Hill [74]. I conclude the Panzer IV "claims" are conjecture of Szamweber and are actually Tiger claims subordinated to the unit.

Schneider is not precise and merely implies the losses of the BCR were mainly inflicted by the Tigers. Schneider appears unaware of FG skirmish, same with Szamweber.

***The positioning of German forces:***

Per Meyer, Szamweber, Napier:

* Panzerjäger Abteilung was operating around Soignelles together with I./25 engaged with Polish forces
Two companies of Panzer IV as well. Unknown strength

* 85th Division defensive position on the Laison river

* Tigers mostly in Quesnay woods, reinforced by Tigers of the 102nd ( Up to 25 ) and 5 Panzer IV
Panthers initially also in Quesnay then moved out taking a detour to surround Worthington [Kurt Meyer] (~5)

* HJ infantry was limited and dug in North of Rouvres and in Quesnay. If any Pak 40 were left with the infantry is questionable.

* Flak units as safety Pakriegel employed North of Potginy to secure the Caen Falaise road. Kurt Meyer rules them out [Kurt Meyer page 290]

* 271st ID infantry likely in the area Grainville

* Some infantry in Estree with 2? Pak.

* Dispersed infantry

* Handful of StuGs floating around that I can't properly locate


[Here](https://imgur.com/a/9L7QkJu) the same map with areas of the actual lost Allied AFVs.

The C and B Squadron of the BCR lost ~25 of their tanks on the [hill](https://imgur.com/a/jZk7T), the rest was likely lost between there and Estree. For B and C squadron the only possible German units were the Tigers, the 5 Panthers, artillery and to a small degree the Panzerjäger. The Panthers claimed only 5 of which some likely were Polish. The Panzerjägers claimed no vehicles directly there but claimed a lot of kills in fighting with the Polish forces, the 1st Polish lost 20+[74][75]. Including some possible artillery kills the Tigers likely scored up to 20 kills on the. Meyer attributes all those kills to Tigers and Panthers[76].

>Later the 13 tanks from the 1st Company 102nd were committed to the battle when they arrived.[77]

Remember no info from the 1st company.

A squadron BCR trailed B and C and never made it towards 140, they were caught by German forces. The only mentioning of German vehicles here are Tigers[78][79]

>A Tiger then appeared and, in the ensuing firefight, three A squadron and the B Squadron tanks were knocked out.[80]

Bechthold claims up to 17 lost tanks, German infantry was present and got destroyed also two pak[81]

Little doubt that most of those as well fell to the Tigers. In the early morning hours the Panzerjägers operated south of Renemesnil and were cut off by Polish tanks and engaged them from the north. Overlap to Estree is possible but unlikely. No mentioning of Panzer Ivs. No claims by Panzer IV. 7 alone were claimed by one Tiger crew[82]. 10 overall knockouts seem conservative but reasonable.

Many books have lumped together the 3 Squadrons despite their fates being pretty different. B and C mostly destroyed in their defensive box, A destroyed on the way.

>The 28th Armoured Regiment left 47 knocked-out tanks on the battlefield, all of which had been knocked out by the Tigers and Panthers. We did not lose a single tank.[83]

I think that the Tigers got roughly 30 of the 47 BCR lost tanks. This would leave roughly 14 totally unknown causes because only ~3 were claimed by Panthers. The 15 could have been destroyed by artillery, infantry and possibly Panzerj. IV. Close range weapons can be ruled out for the most part.

***Foot Guards lost 26 tanks***

This incident is rarely covered and most historians only agree that a big chunk of Shermans got knocked out pretty fast[84][85]. The war diary of the 4th Brigade mentions only [14 tank casualties](https://imgur.com/a/JenQBWZ) but those appear to be partial losses.

The tanks were lost right in front of Quesnay woods when they turned onto the open fields, it is obvious those were knocked out from what was waiting in the Woods. Again no mentioning of Panzer IV claims or testimony. The unit 21st armored regiment diary mentions [killing](https://imgur.com/a/sXCEFxK) a Tiger. The unit diary mentions 88 fire and anti-tank guns but how many of those were actually in the woods is questionable, the area was full of tanks tho.

Those tanks were without a doubt shoot at from the Woods because Grainville and Langanneerie were cleared by other units. The only question is how many of those from Tigers. We are left with speculation here. I would attribute 15 to the Tigers. I can't imagine the 5 Panzer IV getting something left from the ~25 Tigers operating in this area especially since no direct claim appears to exist. Infantry fire appears less likely.

In total 45 is a reasonable kill tally for the Tigers on the 9th. This number is very close to what Schneider and Szamveber give but for totally different reasons, I think both gave too many kills for BCR and forgot the FG. In total the two Canadian units lost 70 Shermans and "only" 45 of those are attributed to Tigers by me with only ~3 being directly claimed by any other unit. It is possible the two mixed those events together.

[Here](https://imgur.com/a/BzbQSUU) the map with the rough areas of where the Canadian tanks got destroyed.

***Recap the evidence:***

* The two Sherman units reported 70 lost Shermans.

* The Panzerregiment 12 ( including Tigers) claimed 78 knock outs with only 5 attributed to Panthers

* No filed claims by Panzer IV units no mentioning of them in books. Only mentioning is Panzer Ivs taking part in the final mopping up of Worthington infantry.

* Panther crews got Iron Crosses for their 5 kills, nothing comparable mentioned for Panzer IV

* Panzerjäger units disconnected by Polish advance south of Soignelles

* No other units with long range anti tank capabilities anywhere near

* Various authors state Tigers and Panthers destroyed BCR with the main share to Tigers

* Testimony in unit diaries about combat with Tigers

* Testimony of Tiger crews knocking out enemy vehicles

* Testimony of Kurt Meyer ordering and seeing Tigers destroy the BCR.

* Consensus in secondary literature about the destruction of the BCR due to Tigers and Panthers and the FG losses due to fire from Quesnay

The 45 knock out for the 9th has to be regarded as a conservative estimate. Every attempt to disprove this number has to answer the following question in a satisfactory way: Who else if not the Tigers?

Some fotos exist of possible victims exist: [1](https://imgur.com/gallery/wDeWCaJ)[2](https://imgur.com/a/WK1PpDN)[3](https://imgur.com/a/GJBb2gw)[4](https://imgur.com/a/Jh9S3jL)[5](https://imgur.com/a/uah3n6O). [86]

45 kills

***10th August***

Schneider claims 38 knock outs.

>Several Tigers of the 3./schwere SS-PanzerAbteilung 101 repulse the renewed Canadian tank attacks and knock out a further thirty-eight tanks.[87]

This claim can not be verified by me and I think Schneider did a mistake by interpreting a document incorrectly. The document is quoted by Patrick Agte:

>The Tigers of the battalion had to take up screening positions behind the main line of resistance during the night of 9-10 August and on the 10th ... The Battalion destroyed 38 enemy tanks during this ***period***[88]

Unless the original document, which I have no access to, is more specific I think you can't make the claim those all happened on the 10th August. It is possible this were for the entire period or from the 8th to 10th. We don't know.

The verified Canadian losses for this period are 21 for the 10th and 11th , here my previous post contains a mistake, the retreat from 195 with a Sherman troop getting sniped occurred on the 11th not the 10th. Interesting is that the Grenadier Guards reported ***21 knocked out and not recovered***[89], this would suggest the actual losses to be higher. Napier estimates GG to be still severely understrength for Tractable despite replacements[90]. The unit diary of the GG also states already receiving repaired tanks during the fight.

All in all the casualties of the GG were likely between 20-30 for "heavy" casualties.

Only two major units come into question for those casualties because neither the Panzer IV nor the Panthers of the 12th SS have filed any claims at all[91]. The Panzerjägers claimed a total of 13[92]. The GG mentions 88mms from 1045, this could have been FlaK units north of Potigny or tanks deploying onto the Caen Falaise road.

The unit diary of the GG makes 2 direct mentions of Tiger tanks hitting their tanks and one "88 mm in the woods at 100483"[93], those can only be the Tigers. Sustained fire from Quesnay direction is mentioned several times as well. Indicating more or less 10 confirmed Tiger kills. One in the morning directly to a Tiger, 2 tanks reported ko on the approach march at St Hillaire, which lay directly in firing path from Quesnay, another tank on the approach towards 195 and 6 again in the same area while leaving. None of those are claims come from the German side but from the Canadian diaries.

Polish tanks operated north of Quesnay, it is possible they endured casualties as well, the same goes for both of the other 4th AB regiments which operated in the area of 195. 10 knock outs seems a reasonable estimate of Tiger kills in the fight for Hill 195. Zuehlke writes the Polish "received a ferocious mauling from .... Quesnay Woods".[94]

10 kills

***Summary Totalize***

In total, I corroborated roughly 65 knockouts with a conservative approach. The evidence for the 9th and following days is rather strong, the evidence for the 8th more circumstantial. The Allied losses in this sector were massive and even accepting other German units claims at face value does not connect all the Allied losses. We have more Allied losses than we have German claims. In total Stephen Napier gives more than 180 tank losses. The HJ Panzerjäger Abteilung claimed ~60, 8 were claimed directly by Panthers and an unknown but low number by the Panzer IV. Dozens of Allied vehicles remained unclaimed and could be knocked-out by infantry, mines or artillery.

#***Operation Tractable***

***14th August***

Schneider gives 20 kills for the 101st [95] and 10 for the 102nd [96].

According to Schneider, the tanks were claimed around Soulangy and near Rouvres during the early phase of the Operation.

The claims of the 101st are easily confirmed only the actual number is in question. Two Canadian regiments come in question for those 20 claims while Schneider mentions the 1st Hussars specifically. The 1st Hussars war diary reports heavy casualties in the early phase of Tractable that were so heavy that the reserve Squadron had already to take lead in the afternoon.[97]. The history of the unit also reports combat with Tigers. Napier claims the A and C squadrons had to be amalgamated with a total of only 11 tanks combat ready, which would suggest ~25 casualties. Zuehlke claims the entire unit minus HQ had only 23 Shermans combat ready at the end of they day [98]. The relatively low personnel casualties, indicate a mass abandonment of tanks, which was not rare once getting engaged on by Tigers. See Villers Bocage, Stack, Bluecoat.

The overall casualties for those units were reported lower at the end[99] but it can be inferred as heavy casualties only. The Fort Garry Horse unit diary doesn't offer much and for some reason very little is written about their operations. Napier says the unit as well amalgamated two Squadrons indicating heavy casualties. Both units got heat in the region where the Tigers operated. That the Tigers took a heavy bite out of the Sherman tank force that tried to cross the Laison is confirmed. Only ~5 Tigers apparently took part in this action, the two Canadian units alone had likely 100+ tanks.

About the other German tank forces is very little known for Tractable, parts of the 12th SS Panzerregiment got encircled further west. Some of the Jagdpanzers certainly operated in the area around Rouvres, with some having ambush positions at Epancy for example. Those Jagdpanzers claimed 15 and it is possible that overlap with the Tigers exists [100].

Other forces that likely claimed tanks were the units from the 85th ID which defended this entire frontline sector. This unit was not equipped for heavy anti tank duty according to Zetterling the unit had 18 heavy anti tank guns on June 30th [ 101]. The Grenadiers had no organic anti tank weapons. Zuehlke reports combat between anti tank guns and infantry for the 1st Hussars[102].

Napier puts the majority of the Panzer IV between Assy and Potigny[103]. The Panthers were positioned even further West where they eventually were encircled and mostly destroyed. The main anti tank force in the area of the 1st Hussars and Fort Garry Horse were indeed the Tigers. The Germans wrongly assumed the main advance to come on their left flank.

Napier:

>The two remaining tanks[Tigers] and three others from the company then engaged the throng of tanks around Assy and Rouvres, taking a heavy toll.

Reynolds on the same incident:

>There was indeed chaos as the Shermans tried to negotiate the stream – one squadron of the 1st Hussars lost eleven of nineteen tanks trying to find its way across.

The action of the 102nd is more difficult to verify because “many” German vehicles operated on the left flank. The 12th HJ tanks got mauled pretty good and no major records about this exists, not a single claim was forwarded which does not necessarily mean there were none.

Three tanks were claimed at Hill 184 where the Fort Garry Horse fought in the evening. No further information from the Canadian side but the Fort Garry Horse suffered heavily during Tractable[104]. Before that the 102nd fought a losing battle against the 2nd Canadian division and the Sherbrooke Fusiliers. They claimed several tanks destroyed but the lack of data doesn't allow for good corroboration.

There is no evidence against the claims of the 101st, even on this level. The two regiments advancing onto the Laison at this position suffered very heavy casualties and no other major German forces operated in this region besides the 85th. No claims for all those tanks are known besides the 20 of the Tigers. Adjusting for moderate overclaim I think 15 is reasonable. The case of the 102nd is more difficult no detailed corroboration is possible but there is also no evidence suggesting the claims to be wrong. The SFR and FGH both suffered substantial losses and operated in the areas claimed by the 102nd as circumstantial evidence can we use the lack of kill claims by 12th SS Panzers. The ~15 claims of the Japdpanzers are more likely against the 4th Brigade which operated further West, especially because Jagdpanzers were reported in ambush positions south of Epancy.[105] Considering standard over-claiming and lacking evidence I reduce the 102nd claims down to 5. A total of 20 knock outs by the Tigers is a conservative estimate.

***15th August***

For the 101st Schneider claims 12 + “several” [106] and for the 102nd only one[107]

We will ignore the single claim of the 102nd and focus the on the 101st. The defence force in this sector is by Napier given as 3 Panthers 12 Tigers and “several” Panzerjäger IV [108]. The Jagdpanzer IV operated several kilometres to the East [109].

There is an issue with those claims. I think the secondary literature confused those claims and mashed them together.

Napier describes the attack on the Tiger position by infantry in support of 1st Hussars tanks and FGH tanks, he claims 6 more 1st Hussars tanks got knocked out while the war diary only mentions 2. The 1st Hussars tanks were called into action to deal with a Tiger [110]. Napier reiterated the claim of 12 tanks by the Tigers and states that the German infantry there was only supported by those two Tigers, but the claim of 12 tanks was made further North around Hill 160. Zuehlke supports the claim of 6 tanks lost by the 1st Hussars and both historians agree that the 1st Hussars avoided supporting the infantry after the skirmish with the Tigers. This lets me believe that the action described above is the incident of Heurichs group which claimed “several” tanks at hill 180.

The action involving the 12 claims would be indeed featuring the Fort Garry Horse which we have learned by now has no useful unit diary.

Here we have some testimony of a German tanker that states that his tank knocked-out 6 Shermans in the area of Soulangy[111]. Hubert Meyer claims 10 Shermans were lost there but only cite the testimony of a German soldier. Zuehlke describes the incident and the heavy infantry losses but only mentions 4 Sherman losses and it is uncertain if he refers to the same tanks.

The Tiger claim of 12 is tricky because nothing suggests it to be incorrect but the supporting evidence is very weak. Some Shermans were very likely knocked-out in Soulangy and another 4 were for certain lost as stated by the FGH war diary.

The entire day is difficult to dissect, I consider it very likely that secondary sources got the locations of the skirmishes wrong I as well had trouble putting all things together.

Supporting the claim of 12 is that we have a strong claim loss connection. Per Napier the FGH lost 25 tanks on the 14&15. These losses appear to be “heavy” losses. A look on the map highlights the limited area where the FGH operated and it was at all times defended by Tigers and little else. If the majority of the kills on the 14th fell on the 1st Hussars than the FGH had to have significant losses on the 15th. I estimate 15 knocked-out tanks but I can't say this figure is conservative in the face of lacking evidence. The BCR as well lost tanks pushing for 168. No claims forwarded by any vehicles of the 12th SS[112].

Overall the 2nd Canadian brigade suffered the highest losses during Tractable with 69. 161 operational to 85. A staggering drop 76 tanks operational, although this would include losses of the 16th. The 1st Hussars and FGH which had the most contact with the Tigers lost about 51. Those figures would exclude all casualties that were repaired within the units. Overall tank losses were well over 100 with only a fraction of those claimed by German units, further supporting the Tiger claims which again were the biggest claimers by far.

~15 kills

Summary Tractable:

Overall I estimate the “score” as 35.


###***Overall verified kill list***

Here is an overall table for the “awarded kills” and the included direct write-offs.

Date|Battle|Kills|Write-offs|
:--|:--|:--|:--|
13 June|Villers Bocage|20|20|
26 June|Epsom|5|3|
10 July|Jupiter|9||
11 July|Jupiter|3||
11 July|Stack|9|9|
2 August|Bluecoat|10|8|
3 August|Bluecoat|13|10|
6 August|Bluecoat|2||
7 August|Bluecoat|12||
8 August|Totalize|7||
9 August|Totalize|45||
10 August|Totalize|10||
14 August|Tractable|20||
15 August|Tractable|15||
|Total|-|180|50|

Now we have to find out how many of those Koed could be expected to be a totally destroyed vehicle. There is no perfect method for this, we have to use the existing data and extrapolate. The Oro T-117 has data on repairability for Allied tanks.[Here](https://imgur.com/a/OrfFKY7) you see the numbers for British tanks in the ETO. “Only” 35% of the gunfire casualties would be completely destroyed for a sample of 316. This varies strongly from the US forces which wrote off 53%. A problem with this data is the unknown time frame of the collected sample, the UK had very different types of combat in the ETO, the heavy tank on tank action post-Normandy and there more or less tank free roaming against Paks and the occasional StuG. A more relevant document could be the an RAC letter to the wastage rates committee, referenced by Napier and Zetterling. By this report:

Type|KO|Write-offs|Repaired|Remaining|Write-off rate|
:--|:--|:--|:--|:--|:--|
Sherman|931|493|297|141|0,53|
Cromwell|140|81|39|20|0,58|
Churchill|205|81|43|81|0,4|
Total:|1276|655|379|242|0,51|

I am not 100% sure how the “remaining” vehicles were classed. Zetterling claims those were “considered” repairable. But I have my doubts about considering them all as non-write-offs. If somebody has the original document please provide it. I doubt all the vehicles were already properly assessed and so I would think the actual number to be higher. Either way this comes pretty close to the average 50% that the massive US sample as shown. As an interesting side note you might notice how high the British losses actually were despite what many "historians" have said about German tank on tank abilities, the report above is from ***July***.

There are several points I would make that this rate for ***gunfire*** is lower than what we should expect for damage done by ***Tigers***. The obvious one is that an 88mm shell does more damage than a 75mm pak Obviously this is conjecture on my part and I am aware that the benefit of the doubt will not be granted for “pro” Tiger arguments so I would say the accepted range is between 35% to 50% with strong tendency to the higher side due to the more relevant sample of the RAC letter about Normandy combat.

Applying those numbers to the remaining 130 Kos we get the range of 45-65 write-offs. Together with the 50 already assumed write-offs we get ***95-115*** destroyed Allied tanks due to Tigers in the samples battles that could be verified by me.

***I want to make clear that I consider this research work in progress and that nothing posted here is set in stone. Uncertainties don't allow for conclusive judgement on this kind of stuff. So I am more than open to adjusting my opinion and I hope so is everybody else. I can say proudly that I think the analysed data above is indeed interpreted correctly by me. The weakness is the lacking data so I invite everybody to add whatever information that is missing here. Maybe kill claims of other German units maybe evidence that Allied losses on any particular day were actually lower.***

What we will do next is analysing all Tiger losses in those battles and searching for write-offs by Allied tanks.

###***Sources:***

***War Diaries***

[Daily AFV states 2nd Army ](https://imgur.com/a/E4vQck0) [4]

Canadian:

6th AR

21st AR

22nd AR

27th AR

28th AR

British:

2nd Fife and Forfare Yeomanry

2nd Northamptonshire Yeomanry

3rd RTR

7th RTR

9th RTR [5]

23rd Hussars

23rd History

148 RAC [2]

153 Brigade

***Books***

Agte: Michael Wittmann [1]

Bechthold: Lost in Normandy

Daglish: Over the Battlefield Blue Coat

Daglish: Over the Battlefield Epsom [6]

Delafore: Monty's Marauders

Hart: Operation Totalize

Hills: By tank into Normandy

Meyer Hubert, The 12th SS

Meyer Kurt: Grenadiers

Napier: Armored Campaign

Saunders: Operation Epsom: VIII British Corps vs 1st SS Panzercorps

Saunders: The Battle for the Odon

Schneider: Tigers in Combat II [0 p207][3 p 207][12][30 p265][35 p267][47 p 267][56 p267][58 p267][59 p268][62 p209][87 p210][95 p210][96 p269][106 p210][107 p269]

Schneider: Tigers in Normandy: [21][22][37]

Számvéber: Waffen-SS Armour in Normandy

Reynolds:

Zetterling: Normandy 44 German Military Organization, combat power and organizational effectiveness.

Zuehlke: Breakout from Juno


As said above I have the reference list and will edit them in other time. Everytime you see a author n [] I forgot to replace the mark with a refernece number. lmao soooo annoying. The cult made me waste so much time, your biggest victory no doubt.

To those hoping that the cultist will come out of the woodwork to challenge the arguments, you are waiting in vain, this here exceeds the pay level of the average cultist. They as well are sitting on the sidelines with their binoculars tightly gripped hoping for somebody to intervene. The cultist by now knows that engaging me with arguments would result in getting clobbered. Your only hope is one of the big guns maybe kenny. Kenny if you read this: put your datamanipulation pants on this will be a tough one.

edit: Apparently kenny who has spent countless hours over decades telling people the Tiger claims are hogwash has declined to rebuttal my post in an effort ***to not lend it credibility***. What a shame.

Tom from Cornwall
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Re: Tigers and the 5:1 myth an analysis of Normandy combat operations involving Tigers. Chapter 2 assessing kills.

#2

Post by Tom from Cornwall » 15 Dec 2018, 11:28

Another "Jupiter" question:

How did you do this:
A considerable amount of other tank-like vehicles could have been reasonably claimed as tanks by the Germans, plenty of M10s of 86th and 91st AT regiment and crocodiles of the 79th division. Especially the M10s are said to have had considerable [losses](https://imgur.com/a/Z9733uP)[19]. I have counted 22 KIA soldiers from the 86th alone just for Jupiter, the losses must have been heavy.
From a war diary, from the records of the Commonwealth War Graves Commission, from a secondary source?

Regards

Tom


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Re: Tigers and the 5:1 myth an analysis of Normandy combat operations involving Tigers. Chapter 2 assessing kills.

#3

Post by Sheldrake » 15 Dec 2018, 12:47

Tom from Cornwall wrote:
15 Dec 2018, 11:28
Another "Jupiter" question:

How did you do this:
A considerable amount of other tank-like vehicles could have been reasonably claimed as tanks by the Germans, plenty of M10s of 86th and 91st AT regiment and crocodiles of the 79th division. Especially the M10s are said to have had considerable [losses](https://imgur.com/a/Z9733uP)[19]. I have counted 22 KIA soldiers from the 86th alone just for Jupiter, the losses must have been heavy.
From a war diary, from the records of the Commonwealth War Graves Commission, from a secondary source?

Regards

Tom
The CWGC records 22 men from 86 Atk Regt with the date of death 10th or 11th July 1944. This was the 12th Corps Anti tank Regiment. (91st Atk did not take part in Op Jupiter.) The losses were from both Towed and SP equipped batteries. The battle was not a simple duel between tiger tanks and M10s.

The 86 Atk war diary entries record

10 July
Regt WD 11.30 J Tp Tp (3" M10) loses one M10 destroyed one damaged. This tp in res with 46 Bde. Casualties from mortars or shells.
(340 Bty) K Bty claims three tigers and one Fw190 for one M10 burned out
129 Bty (M10) WD 20.00 report three 17 pdr M10 burned out by mortar or shells No enemy tanks seen. seven M10 available (129 Bty WD)
130 Bty Towed 17 Pdr forward with DCLI Hill 112 Heavy casualties. three x 17 pdr lost. One recovered on 12 July.
128 Bty Towed, Mortaring (6 wounded)

Tom from Cornwall
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Re: Tigers and the 5:1 myth an analysis of Normandy combat operations involving Tigers. Chapter 2 assessing kills.

#4

Post by Tom from Cornwall » 15 Dec 2018, 13:13

Sheldrake,

Many thanks for that information.

Are those just snippets from a much more detailed war diary, or is that it?

Regards

Tom

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Re: Tigers and the 5:1 myth an analysis of Normandy combat operations involving Tigers. Chapter 2 assessing kills.

#5

Post by Michael Kenny » 15 Dec 2018, 14:24

The photo of the M10 used is from page 119 of Tim Saunder's 'Hill 112' Battleground Europe paperback. It looks like details of incidents mentioned on page 76 (and others scattered throughout the book) has been used as well as the photo of a vehicle data sheet for 4 lost M10s on page 120-121.

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Re: Tigers and the 5:1 myth an analysis of Normandy combat operations involving Tigers. Chapter 2 assessing kills.

#6

Post by Christianmunich » 15 Dec 2018, 17:25

Sheldrake wrote:
15 Dec 2018, 12:47
Tom from Cornwall wrote:
15 Dec 2018, 11:28
Another "Jupiter" question:

How did you do this:
A considerable amount of other tank-like vehicles could have been reasonably claimed as tanks by the Germans, plenty of M10s of 86th and 91st AT regiment and crocodiles of the 79th division. Especially the M10s are said to have had considerable [losses](https://imgur.com/a/Z9733uP)[19]. I have counted 22 KIA soldiers from the 86th alone just for Jupiter, the losses must have been heavy.
From a war diary, from the records of the Commonwealth War Graves Commission, from a secondary source?

Regards

Tom
The CWGC records 22 men from 86 Atk Regt with the date of death 10th or 11th July 1944. This was the 12th Corps Anti tank Regiment. (91st Atk did not take part in Op Jupiter.) The losses were from both Towed and SP equipped batteries. The battle was not a simple duel between tiger tanks and M10s.

The 86 Atk war diary entries record

10 July
Regt WD 11.30 J Tp Tp (3" M10) loses one M10 destroyed one damaged. This tp in res with 46 Bde. Casualties from mortars or shells.
(340 Bty) K Bty claims three tigers and one Fw190 for one M10 burned out
129 Bty (M10) WD 20.00 report three 17 pdr M10 burned out by mortar or shells No enemy tanks seen. seven M10 available (129 Bty WD)
130 Bty Towed 17 Pdr forward with DCLI Hill 112 Heavy casualties. three x 17 pdr lost. One recovered on 12 July.
128 Bty Towed, Mortaring (6 wounded)
As pointed out by Sheldrake those are roll of honour KIA number from Jupiter but his following claim seems to miss the point:
The battle was not a simple duel between tiger tanks and M10s.
Nobody said this and is also not important. The number was given to give perspective for possible M10 losses which could have created "false" cross claims by the 12th SS for example. M10s were not included in the 5:1 ratio as explained withint the texts but they would be reasonable "claims" for a German unit and could be used to reduce the overall "overlap" between claims. Example: Only 10 tanks were lost in sector X, German unit A claimed 10 there and Tiger unit B claimed also 10. Now this is a problem but it could be possible that M10s were lost in the sector of unit A which then could be used to reduce their cllaims because unit A does not care about my interpretation of the 5:1 and would have claimed those M10s as tanks...

That is the only reason I tried to find M10 losses but as seen above I was never able to establish M10 losses for any battle despite their reported presence.

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Re: Tigers and the 5:1 myth an analysis of Normandy combat operations involving Tigers. Chapter 2 assessing kills.

#7

Post by Sheldrake » 16 Dec 2018, 04:05

Tom from Cornwall wrote:
15 Dec 2018, 13:13
Sheldrake,

Many thanks for that information.

Are those just snippets from a much more detailed war diary, or is that it?

Regards

Tom
The are from the war diaries and notes made on the War Diuaries

If you want more you will have to buy the book. https://www.amazon.co.uk/Gunners-Norman ... 0750990449

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Re: Tigers and the 5:1 myth an analysis of Normandy combat operations involving Tigers. Chapter 2 assessing kills.

#8

Post by Tom from Cornwall » 16 Dec 2018, 09:08

Thanks, I’ll start saving up for that one.

Regards

Tom

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Re: Tigers and the 5:1 myth an analysis of Normandy combat operations involving Tigers. Chapter 2 assessing kills.

#9

Post by Tom from Cornwall » 16 Dec 2018, 11:02

christianmunich,

BLUECOAT - 2 August 1944

You say that:
#***Operation Bluecoat***

***2nd August***

[…] The 23rd Hussars suffered significant casualties in an ambush that was likely set by Tigers[36] [37][38], despite the identification of Panthers. Panthers operated around Estry. Losses of the 23rd Hussars can be verified by the war diary and the official history of the 23rd Hussars. The unit history claims all but 4 Shermans of A squadron were koed[39]. This would speak for massive losses but seems unlikely unless the unit was severely understrength.
Can you point me to the page in the war diary of 23 Hussars that gives the number of tanks knocked out on 2 August 1944? The copy in the UK National Archives doesn't do that.

In the Brigade war diary (WO171/627), there is an entry for 2 August that records that "23 H lost 5 tks when a sqn was caught in a sunken lane by Panthers".

Of course, the unit war diary also talked about Panthers, but you seem to disregard British identification of enemy tanks.

I would be grateful if you could explain what reference you are using for the location of other German tanks rather than the guesses you are making about the location of the Tigers that day?

Regards

Tom

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Re: Tigers and the 5:1 myth an analysis of Normandy combat operations involving Tigers. Chapter 2 assessing kills.

#10

Post by Sheldrake » 16 Dec 2018, 14:47

Tom from Cornwall wrote:
16 Dec 2018, 09:08
Thanks, I’ll start saving up for that one.

Regards

Tom
....or wait until it is remaindered ! I didn't set the price.

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Re: Tigers and the 5:1 myth an analysis of Normandy combat operations involving Tigers. Chapter 2 assessing kills.

#11

Post by Christianmunich » 16 Dec 2018, 15:07

Tom from Cornwall wrote:
16 Dec 2018, 11:02
christianmunich,

BLUECOAT - 2 August 1944

You say that:
#***Operation Bluecoat***

***2nd August***

[…] The 23rd Hussars suffered significant casualties in an ambush that was likely set by Tigers[36] [37][38], despite the identification of Panthers. Panthers operated around Estry. Losses of the 23rd Hussars can be verified by the war diary and the official history of the 23rd Hussars. The unit history claims all but 4 Shermans of A squadron were koed[39]. This would speak for massive losses but seems unlikely unless the unit was severely understrength.
Can you point me to the page in the war diary of 23 Hussars that gives the number of tanks knocked out on 2 August 1944? The copy in the UK National Archives doesn't do that.

In the Brigade war diary (WO171/627), there is an entry for 2 August that records that "23 H lost 5 tks when a sqn was caught in a sunken lane by Panthers".

Of course, the unit war diary also talked about Panthers, but you seem to disregard British identification of enemy tanks.

I would be grateful if you could explain what reference you are using for the location of other German tanks rather than the guesses you are making about the location of the Tigers that day?

Regards

Tom
HI Tom please check out the other thread I just yesterday wrote a major post about the 2nd August.

In regards to 23rd Hussars losses and their verification. The losses are assessed by again using the tank states and war diaries and post war unit history. Like you said the war diary does not give a specific number for the day but only a reference to "struck off" vehicles at a later date, but the unit history refers to "all but 4 vehicles" and the tank state give 30 Sherman casualties ( 18 of those "heavy" ) and 3 stuarts. I believe Daglish gives 31?!? This excludes possible Cromwell losses.

The mentioning of direct unit losses in diaries is not a sufficient meassure of losses for the very simple reason that there is enough eivdence the numbers are nearly always to low. And when I say enough evidence I mean overwhelming evidence. Depending on the regiment some would rarely mention tank losses directly. The unit diaries of the 11th Armoured would be such unit and the numbers printed are mostly irrelevant because they never match overall losses even lightly.

Good example would e the 7th August, same units. The unit diaries mention a total of 5 tanks lost. The tank state shows 20+

Numbers in unit diaries were exploited by bad faith people ( not meaning you :-) ) for decades to devalue claims of German forces until people like me got a hand on tank state. It doesn't mean anything if a British unit reported X amount of casualties, x would be the bare possible minimum.

Also, all your questions were kinda addressed by me I have also in my article mentioned the 29th Brigade claims and how they are contradictory.

I also lowered the 23rd Hussars losses below what people like Daglish believed et cetera.

The losses of the 23rd Hussars like always are based on reasonable assumptions. None of the other 2 Sherman regiments reported major problem.

I will recap the evidence and demonstrate the uselessness of war diaries for assessing precise number:

* 3 Sherman units within the 29th Brigade

* 29th Brigade reported 30 Sherman casualties of those were 18 "heavy"

* 3rd RTR reports not a single direct casualty the only mention of combat is the report of "trouble" at 17 hours

* 2nd F&F reports very little, zero casualties mentioned

* 23rd Hussars: Also reports no direct casualties just mentions being ambushed. And the infantry personnel.

* None of the three Sherman units in the 29th Brigade mentioned any losses at all

* 29th AB reports only 5 casualties in the 23rd Hussars...

* Number of serviceable Sherman drops by >>>31<<<

Yeah doesn't add up. That is why unit diary losses never add up to the eventual losses of the campaigns. I think my reasoning was also explained this way in the actual texts.

But here how I see it. The 2nd F&F likely suffered very little actual damage, the 3rd RTR maybe a bit, the 23rd must have sustained heavy damage there is no other good explanation. We obviously have the unit history that says "all but 4 of A Sqd" but this appears to be on the high side.

Be careful with "unit diary x y z only give so and so numbers". The 23rd Hussars mentions no tank casualties at all for the August week and then struck off 18? If you go through old forums you will find hundreds of post saying "the war diary doesn't show such losses". A dishonest tactic used for ages. But now I am here so all good in the end.

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Re: Tigers and the 5:1 myth an analysis of Normandy combat operations involving Tigers. Chapter 2 assessing kills.

#12

Post by MarkN » 16 Dec 2018, 15:55

Flaw #371 - Not telling the truth example #53

You wrote (snipped to remove the wall of delusion):-
Christianmunich wrote:
13 Dec 2018, 18:53
Losses of the 23rd Hussars can be verified by the war diary ....
You have been asked to substantiate this claim.
Tom from Cornwall wrote:
16 Dec 2018, 11:02
Can you point me to the page in the war diary of 23 Hussars that gives the number of tanks knocked out on 2 August 1944? The copy in the UK National Archives doesn't do that.
Your response was wall of misdirection - which I have snipped to leave your answer:-
Christianmunich wrote:
16 Dec 2018, 15:07
In regards to 23rd Hussars losses and their verification. The losses are assessed by again using the tank states and war diaries and post war unit history. Like you said the war diary does not give a specific number for the day but only a reference to "struck off" vehicles at a later date, but the unit history refers to "all but 4 vehicles" and the tank state give 30 Sherman casualties ( 18 of those "heavy" ) and 3 stuarts. I believe Daglish gives 31?!? This excludes possible Cromwell losses.
So, YOUR CLAIM of losses of the 23rd Hussars IS NOT verified by the war diary. YOU are NOT telling the truth. Again!

YOUR CLAIM is a random punt at a number that suits your agenda.

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Re: Tigers and the 5:1 myth an analysis of Normandy combat operations involving Tigers. Chapter 2 assessing kills.

#13

Post by Juha » 16 Dec 2018, 18:08

Oper. Totalize 8 Aug, some comments:
Szamveber p. 170, 1./SS-Pz.Jg.Abt. 12 losses were "besides the knocked out Jagdpanzer IVs, three killed and 12 wounded" so definitely more than one JgPz IV.
p. 244 SS-PzR 12 claimed 40 Shermans and one Cromwell on 8 Aug 44, mostly probably by the II. Abt. which operated against 1 Northants Yeo and Poles S and SE of St. Aignan de Cramesnil.
Agte writes that the Tigers surviving the "Wittmann ambush" stayed on SW side of St. Aignan de Cramesnil, so operated against the Canadians. ' A combat report said of SS-Hauptsturmführer Dr. Rabe:"...Dr. Rabe...assumed command of the battalion [After the death of Wittmann] on his own initiative and deployed the remaining three Tigers against an enemy counterattack from the area west of St. Aignan with an infantry battalion, ten tanks and numerous anti-tank guns. Under Rabe's direction, the Tigers destroyed seven enemy tanks and halted the attack..."'
IMHO Szamveber at the bottom of the p. 126 seems to support Agte's view.

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Re: Tigers and the 5:1 myth an analysis of Normandy combat operations involving Tigers. Chapter 2 assessing kills.

#14

Post by Tom from Cornwall » 16 Dec 2018, 19:26

Christianmunich,
In regards to 23rd Hussars losses and their verification. The losses are assessed by again using the tank states and war diaries and post war unit history. Like you said the war diary does not give a specific number for the day but only a reference to "struck off" vehicles at a later date, but the unit history refers to "all but 4 vehicles" and the tank state give 30 Sherman casualties ( 18 of those "heavy" ) and 3 stuarts. I believe Daglish gives 31?!? This excludes possible Cromwell losses.
To get to the 30 Sherman casualties that you refer to above, can you confirm that you are simply adding up all the "Fit in 24 hrs" and "Not fit in 24 hrs/Knocked out" columns? It would also be useful to know whether you assume that all these tanks have been made NOT FIT due to enemy action?

Can you confirm that if the last column recorded (say) 3 Sherman 75mm on 1 Aug 44 and recorded (say) 14 Sherman 75mm on 2 Aug you have assumed that this means that 29 Armoured Brigade had 3 of these variants knocked out on 1 Aug and another 14 on 2 Aug and have discarded any possibility that the 3 that were "not fit in 24 hrs" on 1 Aug were still "not fit in 24 hrs" on 2 Aug and that therefore there is a possibility that some of the extra 11 tanks that appear "not fit in 24 hrs" on 2 Aug were due to serviceability issues (perhaps a gearbox failure here, a dodgy transmission there, etc).

Now that you are aware that your claim of detailed numbers of tank battle casualties suffered by 23 Hussars is NOT verified by the war diary it would be great if you were to go back and make that clear in your original post. It would be unfortunate if someone was to read your incorrect statement and not have the time to check its validity.

By the way do you have the war diary for 270 Forward Delivery Squadron as that might give us an idea of how many replacement tanks 29 Armd Bde was being provided with during the first week of August 1944.

I ask because you added that:
Good example would e the 7th August, same units. The unit diaries mention a total of 5 tanks lost. The tank state shows 20+
If you look closely at the tank state report in the 29 Armd Bde wa diary for 7 August, the column of 75mm Shermans "Not fit in 24 hrs/KO" includes 10 in 270 Fwd Del. Sqn. Where they involved in heavy combat on that date?

Regards

Tom

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Re: Tigers and the 5:1 myth an analysis of Normandy combat operations involving Tigers. Chapter 2 assessing kills.

#15

Post by MarkN » 16 Dec 2018, 20:41

Tom from Cornwall wrote:
16 Dec 2018, 19:26
Christianmunich,

Now that you are aware that your claim of detailed numbers of tank battle casualties suffered by 23 Hussars is NOT verified by the war diary it would be great if you were to go back and make that clear in your original post. It would be unfortunate if someone was to read your incorrect statement and not have the time to check its validity.

Regards

Tom
Tom!!!!! How could you? How can you dare to question.....
Christianmunich wrote:
14 Dec 2018, 18:38
From the looks of it my methods look impeccable nobody finds anything against them.
...and...
Christianmunich wrote:
14 Dec 2018, 20:57
My "guesses" are the best guesses ever made for such kind of research when other published best selling authors merely compared losses of major armies and tried to infer combat effectiveness I went above and beyond and delivered extremely accurate estimations which remain uncontested. They are uncontested because they are soooooooo good.
:lol: :lol: :lol:

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