Rank question for Waffen SS Officer Canidates

Discussions on all (non-biographical) aspects of the Freikorps, Reichswehr, Austrian Bundesheer, Heer, Waffen-SS, Volkssturm and Fallschirmjäger and the other Luftwaffe ground forces. Hosted by Christoph Awender.
User avatar
Hessler64
Member
Posts: 457
Joined: 19 Jan 2005 04:20
Location: Pennsylvania, U.S.A

Rank question for Waffen SS Officer Canidates

Post by Hessler64 » 17 Feb 2005 04:11

I am trying to find out the rank structure for all Waffen SS enlisted personel that went to Junkerschules. I know that they started of as a Junker, and then because a OberJunker, and then finished as a Standartenoberjunker, and then went back to their units for a training period before becoming officers. My questions are this:


What would Junker be equivalant to a SS Unterscharfurher, or a SS Sharfuhrer? What is the rank equvalant for a Oberjunker and a Standartenoberjunker? Where there other Junkerschules other than Bad Tolz, Braunschwieg, and Metz?


Thanks

Rich

tommy303
Member
Posts: 580
Joined: 21 Dec 2004 17:54
Location: arizona

Post by tommy303 » 17 Feb 2005 05:45

Hallo Rich,

SS-Junker = SS-Untersturmführer
SS-Standartenjunker = SS-Scharführer
SS-Standartenoberjunker = SS Hauptscharführer.

The SS-Junkerschulen at Bad Tolz and Braunschweig were the two primary pre-war officer training establishments; Metz came later. As a rule, recruits entering the Waffen SS during the war normally signed on for the duration. Offizier candidates however had to sign a contract for an extended professional officer career before they were admitted. Normal training included basic training followed by active duty before the candidate was sent off to one of the Junkerschule, during which time he was closely observed by his officers and NCOs. He had to serve a specific amount of time in the lower ranks usually 2 months, before being sent off to school. The six month schooling was done in stages, each followed by an examination and promotion to the next level. It was often the case that upon promotion to SS-Standartenjunker, a brief period of active service followed to further test the man's newfound knowledge and responsibilities. Once he completed his final stage and was an SS-Standartenoberjunker, he rated as a warrant officer. This he remained on active duty until such a time as his commander deemed him worthy to promotion to SS-Untersturmführer. A friend of mine completed his training at Metz in June 1944 but was not promoted until September 1944, so promotion to officer rank was not automatic upon finishing schooling as it was in some other armies.

In emergencies it was sometimes necessary to promote senior NCOs who showed promise as squad and platoon leaders directly to Untersturmführer, although such promotions were considered temporary and classified as reserve officers rather than professional officers.

User avatar
Hessler64
Member
Posts: 457
Joined: 19 Jan 2005 04:20
Location: Pennsylvania, U.S.A

Post by Hessler64 » 17 Feb 2005 13:16

Tommy


Thanks for the quick reply to my question. I agree with your explanation since that is what I thought it was all along, but I have seen in two books ( History of 17th.SS GvB from Heimdal, and Peiper Panzer regiment commander by Schiffler) that show pictures of SS- Junkers with the rank of SS Scarfuhrer. This is where I got confused and why I am posting this question. I now have new questions....(LOL) When you explained that the Junkerschule had you to complete basic training beforehand ,and sign a contract for a long enlistment period is considered Pre War, where I am more intrested on how things worked during Mid war, and Latter part of the war. Was the schooling shortened to get the potential officers out in the field due to the need for manpower ( especially officers). I know that Metz was a Junkerschule that dealt with officers with special training ( Communications, Pioneers, ect). I heard that they converted Braunschwig to a NCO school in the latter part of the war ( is this true)? Is there any other Junkerschules besides Bad Tolz? Is there any specific books on the Junkerschules that I might be able to buy? by any chance s your firends name Gerhard? If so I know him very well.


Vielen Danke

Rich

tommy303
Member
Posts: 580
Joined: 21 Dec 2004 17:54
Location: arizona

Post by tommy303 » 17 Feb 2005 18:02

Yes my friend is Gerhard. In point of fact, when he was sent off to officer training he was a little disgruntled because he had enlisted for the duration and had not wished to make SS service a career, but had to sign up for the extended enlistment as he was under orders from his commander to go and had little choice in the matter. As far as I know, the actual course work and two months service prior to attending the Junkerschulen, though set down pre-war, was not seriously relaxed during the war. It was similar to officer training in the Army and Kriegsmarine, neither of which relaxed their standards during the war. To a degree, especially in the SS, this led frequently to shortages of properly schooled officers, which explains why so many positions from squad leader up to divisional commander were filled by men whose substantive rank was considerably less than found in other armies. The one major concession was in appointing candidates to officer training (as reserve officers) who might not otherwise have qualified during peacetime.

Other schools I am aware of besides the three already discussed were at Klagenfurt (Austria), and Prague.

As far as literature goes, you might want to take a look at

Militärischer Führernachwuchs der Waffen-SS. Die Junkerschulen., by Richard Schulze-Kossens

thomas

Marc Rikmenspoel
Member
Posts: 1131
Joined: 12 Sep 2004 06:44
Location: Denver, Colorado USA

Post by Marc Rikmenspoel » 17 Feb 2005 19:46

I just want to second the recommendation of Schulze-Kossens' book, it is full of fascinating information about the Waffen-SS in general, and includes a well done translation into English (don't be scared off by the German title, it is fully translated).

User avatar
Hessler64
Member
Posts: 457
Joined: 19 Jan 2005 04:20
Location: Pennsylvania, U.S.A

Post by Hessler64 » 17 Feb 2005 21:49

Tommy and Marc


Thaks for the info, and the help. I did talk to Gerhard concering this matter, and I did get some useful information on this, but he had to end the phone conversation short due to a family comitment. Where would be the best place to find these books you both recomended? amazon.com?


Rich

Phil Nix
In memoriam
Posts: 9498
Joined: 15 Oct 2002 10:52
Location: Birmingham England

Post by Phil Nix » 18 Feb 2005 10:28

The only Junkerschulen were
Tölz, Braunschweig (moved to Posen 1.7.44 after an air raid had destroyed the complex in Braunschweig), Klagenfurt and Prag. Metz was a trade training school for signals officers. There was a kind of Junker school for medical officers in Berlin 1937 - 1940 then moved to Graz
Phil Nix

User avatar
Jeremy Chan
Member
Posts: 1410
Joined: 25 Aug 2003 10:32
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Post by Jeremy Chan » 18 Feb 2005 14:31

Hessler64 wrote: Where would be the best place to find these books you both recomended? amazon.com?

You could always try a military bookstore down town or a large-scale one like Borders'. amazon.com would be a good choice, or http://www.abebooks.com. I was planning to buy Militärischer Führernachwuchs der Waffen-SS but it costs a bundle, I encountered it for A$177 in a militaria dealer's I frequent. (!) If you want to go for a lower-budget option, try Waffen-SS Handbook 1939-1945, Gordon Williamson's brilliant take on the W-SS. The Junkerschulen are covered in a chapter on recrutment. Otherwise, try such autobiographies as those of Hein Springer or Karl Ullrich (Wie ein Fels im Meer).
Tommy, I like your comprehensive answer, though I have to say that about the contract, it wasn't a written one per se although oficer candidates, once commissioned, 'signed on' for 25 years, AFAIK the regulation didn't change during wartime.
Also, in what is now practised in most of those militaries with conscription, a prospecxtive W-SS member enlisted directly 'from the bottom', and not as an officer. A recruit could apply for OCS (ie the Junkerschulen) after serving for a year in the ranks, thus having first completed his basic training.
Tommy, you got the rank relations for SS-Junker wrong. :cry: It is equal to SS-Unterscharführer, corporal.
It was SS-Colonel General Paul 'Papa' Hausser who oversaw the establishment of the SS-Junkerschulen, designing the curriculum fitting to provide officers for an elite.
Tommy, the field promotions you speak of are encountered in such situations as the loss of a platoon leader, thus the chain of command is shifted up. I started a thread almost 2 years ago
about SS-officers who'd risen through the ranks, Michael Wittmann being one of them. It seemed that in not-so-dire situations, they'd be seconded to the Junkerschulen for some time.
Hope I helped.
Cheers,
Jeremy

tommy303
Member
Posts: 580
Joined: 21 Dec 2004 17:54
Location: arizona

Post by tommy303 » 18 Feb 2005 16:18

Thanks Jeremy, I most certainly did get the first rank wrong. Will teach me to proof read a little more carefully in the future, something I warn students abouot constantly.

tommy

Emil K.
Member
Posts: 145
Joined: 06 Feb 2005 17:29
Location: The Eurasian continent

Post by Emil K. » 18 Feb 2005 20:43

tommy303 wrote:SS-Junker = SS-Untersturmführer
SS-Standartenjunker = SS-Scharführer
SS-Standartenoberjunker = SS Hauptscharführer.

I don't think this is correct.

User avatar
Hessler64
Member
Posts: 457
Joined: 19 Jan 2005 04:20
Location: Pennsylvania, U.S.A

Post by Hessler64 » 18 Feb 2005 21:49

Tommy already made note that is was a mistake.


Rich

Halfdan S.
Member
Posts: 1744
Joined: 08 Oct 2007 02:02
Location: Copenhagen

Re:

Post by Halfdan S. » 07 Nov 2019 21:13

Jeremy Chan wrote:
18 Feb 2005 14:31
...though I have to say that about the contract, it wasn't a written one per se although oficer candidates, once commissioned, 'signed on' for 25 years, AFAIK the regulation didn't change during wartime.
tommy303 wrote:
17 Feb 2005 05:45
Offizier candidates however had to sign a contract for an extended professional officer career before they were admitted.
I'd be interested to know more about these contracts, as I've found a interrogation of a Standartenoberjunker, who claims that having reached this Rank he said that he didn't want to become an Officer after all. Doesn't sound right.

Best
Halfdan S.

offizier1916
Member
Posts: 341
Joined: 20 Sep 2015 10:37
Location: Deutschland

Re: Re:

Post by offizier1916 » 08 Nov 2019 08:15

Halfdan S. wrote:
07 Nov 2019 21:13
Jeremy Chan wrote:
18 Feb 2005 14:31
...though I have to say that about the contract, it wasn't a written one per se although oficer candidates, once commissioned, 'signed on' for 25 years, AFAIK the regulation didn't change during wartime.
tommy303 wrote:
17 Feb 2005 05:45
Offizier candidates however had to sign a contract for an extended professional officer career before they were admitted.
I'd be interested to know more about these contracts, as I've found a interrogation of a Standartenoberjunker, who claims that having reached this Rank he said that he didn't want to become an Officer after all. Doesn't sound right.

Best
Halfdan S.
hello,

this statement could be an excuse for not fullfilling the requirements to become an officer.
Even at the end of the war in 44/45 up to 30-50% of the candidates did not pass the"zwischenprüfung" to become a Fähnrich/Oberfähnrich or failed at the later Frontprüfung. these officer candidates were then dismissed and had to return to theirTruppenteil as NCOs.
if im not mistaken user "RolandP" of the LdW had some excellent documents about Officer courses ( at the Panzergrenadierschule in Böhmen und Mähren) combined with personal letters from officer candidates .

Halfdan S.
Member
Posts: 1744
Joined: 08 Oct 2007 02:02
Location: Copenhagen

Re: Rank question for Waffen SS Officer Canidates

Post by Halfdan S. » 08 Nov 2019 23:24

Thanks, yet I find it strange that someone having reached the Rank Standartenoberjunker, should be allowed to have second thoughts about becoming an officer - maybe if he had been Standartenjunker ... I've seen Lists in BA Freiburg with several Danes having been returned to their Units, like this guy:
IMG_0213.jpg
Regards
Halfdan S.
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.

Return to “Heer, Waffen-SS & Fallschirmjäger”