Ostfront was overrated

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ljadw
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Re: Ostfront was overrated

Post by ljadw » 09 Nov 2019 07:43

mustang19 wrote:
08 Nov 2019 17:56
Richard Anderson wrote:
08 Nov 2019 16:45
Sid Guttridge wrote:
08 Nov 2019 15:23
Hi Mustang19,

There were no original sources in your links replying to me (though you do rather better later in other replies).

Furthermore, you have cherry picked the AHF link.

You only quote where it says, "In total up to 500,000 Poles served in the Wehrmacht during WW2." However, it concludes by saying, "The exact number of Poles who died while serving in Wehrmacht is still unknown, but is estimated (basing on partial data, fragmentary sources) as much more than 100,000." Why did you miss out the last bit?

We also need your definition of "Polish". Are you including people of Polish descent from the Alt Reich, most of whom were German speakers by 1939? Or all those with Polish citizenship in 1939, which includes millions of Ukrainians, Byelorussians, Jews, etc., etc.? Or those who chose to apply for recognition as German under the VOMI during the war? Are you including all the non-Polish Slavs such as the Gorals, who were in Poland in 1939? What about the Slavic Wends, who were inside the Alt Reich? What about those of mixed origin, which may have included much or most of the border populations? Etc., etc., etc.

It seems clear that there were not anything like 500,000 self-identifying Poles in the Wehrmacht in WWII. Indeed, self-identifying Poles would almost certainly have been automatically excluded from the Wehrmacht.

On the other hand there are all sorts of grey areas (as outlined two paragraphs above) that allow you some leeway.

So, who are you counting as Poles?

Cheers,

Sid.

P.S. The VOMI figures include all genders and ages. The men of military age would have amounted to at most a fifth of that, if Reich enlistment elsewhere is anything to go by. Furthermore, the last of the four VOMI categories (IV) were unusable.

P.P.S. 75% of the prisoners the Canadians captured at Dieppe in 1942 were former Polish citizens from Danzig-West Preussen. Unfortunately, as the total of prisoners was only four, this is not statistically significant.

P.P.P.S. Apparently only one German field division (60th Infantry/Motorised) was raised in Danzig-West Preussen by the German Army and none elsewhere in Poland. However, this division was essentially raised in Danzig, a city that was 95% German. Former "Poles" (dependent on your definition) from the area doubtless provided a certain amount of other-rank cannon fodder elsewhere in the German Army (as at Dieppe), but it is clear that they were not trusted in their own, locally-raised units and probably did not provide officers.
Good luck on getting him to define what the Germans decided "Polish" meant. Aside from not being able to spell Volksdeutsche even when it is in the link he gives, he also has zero idea of what it meant to the Germans and especially the Wehrmacht. I also doubt he understands the difference between HiWi, Freiwilligen, Osttruppen, and "Turkisch-Truppen".

It is kinda interesting reading the thinly veiled neo-Nazi (excuse me, "Alt-Right") rhetoric though. It's helping me prepare for the 2020 election onslaught of such critters here in the States.
Your post mostly confirms what I said. I mean, I'm saying that the collaborators were the same size as the red army.

Let me know which one of these sounds ridiculous-

1. Peak strength of the red army was 6 million

2. Nkvd, penal and blocking units numbered around 4m and spent a lot of time killing other Soviets

3. Another 2-3m were Ostruppen, Hiwi, Slav SS, local occupation troops

4. Adding (2) and (3) together you get basically the same number of Soviets killing each other was about the same as the peak strength of the army

5. At the peak, about Half the axis forces in the east were Romanians, finns, poles, collaborators and other non-German ethnicities.

6. Even within the Wehrmact there were at least 500k foreign volunteers and the Wehrmact had a peak strength of 3m in the east.

7. 500k Wehrmact died in just two battles (Stalingrad/Leningrad). 200k in Barbarossa, 300k in Rzhev. There are also another 1m Wehrmact pow deaths probably at least partly included as KIA.

8. By (7), a third, more likely half, of the German Wehrmact losses occured in the first year of the war and the rest was mostly Germany running away and leaving things to other Axis. Ukraine, for example, was mostly defended by Romania, Poland had only 500k defenders which presumably included a lot of Volksdeutsche, Berlin had only 45000 defenders.

9. In conclusion the history channel understanding of ww2 is wrong. Soviets mostly killed each other, Germans mostly ran away.
All points sound ridiculous.ONE exemple:peak strength of the Red Army
December 1941 : 8.923.000
November 1942 : 10.609.000
January 1944 : 11.010.000
January 1945 : 11.409.000
Or take point 8 : German losses in 1941:824000 ( without Finland and LW ) ,in 1942 : 1.1 million, 1943 : 1.7 million
Point 6 :peak strength of the Ostheer (without LW ) was higher than 3 million ) some 3,3 million in June 1941.
Point 7 : POW deaths are included in the number of MIA, not in the KIA.

Richard Anderson
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Re: Ostfront was overrated

Post by Richard Anderson » 09 Nov 2019 11:15

Yes, it is sad, mustang19, ljadw, and jesk would have been the perfecta trifecta.
"Is all this pretentious pseudo intellectual citing of sources REALLY necessary? It gets in the way of a good, spirited debate, destroys the cadence." POD, 6 October 2018

mustang19
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Location: Usa

Re: Ostfront was overrated

Post by mustang19 » 09 Nov 2019 18:47

ljadw wrote:
09 Nov 2019 07:43
mustang19 wrote:
08 Nov 2019 17:56
Richard Anderson wrote:
08 Nov 2019 16:45
Sid Guttridge wrote:
08 Nov 2019 15:23
Hi Mustang19,

There were no original sources in your links replying to me (though you do rather better later in other replies).

Furthermore, you have cherry picked the AHF link.

You only quote where it says, "In total up to 500,000 Poles served in the Wehrmacht during WW2." However, it concludes by saying, "The exact number of Poles who died while serving in Wehrmacht is still unknown, but is estimated (basing on partial data, fragmentary sources) as much more than 100,000." Why did you miss out the last bit?

We also need your definition of "Polish". Are you including people of Polish descent from the Alt Reich, most of whom were German speakers by 1939? Or all those with Polish citizenship in 1939, which includes millions of Ukrainians, Byelorussians, Jews, etc., etc.? Or those who chose to apply for recognition as German under the VOMI during the war? Are you including all the non-Polish Slavs such as the Gorals, who were in Poland in 1939? What about the Slavic Wends, who were inside the Alt Reich? What about those of mixed origin, which may have included much or most of the border populations? Etc., etc., etc.

It seems clear that there were not anything like 500,000 self-identifying Poles in the Wehrmacht in WWII. Indeed, self-identifying Poles would almost certainly have been automatically excluded from the Wehrmacht.

On the other hand there are all sorts of grey areas (as outlined two paragraphs above) that allow you some leeway.

So, who are you counting as Poles?

Cheers,

Sid.

P.S. The VOMI figures include all genders and ages. The men of military age would have amounted to at most a fifth of that, if Reich enlistment elsewhere is anything to go by. Furthermore, the last of the four VOMI categories (IV) were unusable.

P.P.S. 75% of the prisoners the Canadians captured at Dieppe in 1942 were former Polish citizens from Danzig-West Preussen. Unfortunately, as the total of prisoners was only four, this is not statistically significant.

P.P.P.S. Apparently only one German field division (60th Infantry/Motorised) was raised in Danzig-West Preussen by the German Army and none elsewhere in Poland. However, this division was essentially raised in Danzig, a city that was 95% German. Former "Poles" (dependent on your definition) from the area doubtless provided a certain amount of other-rank cannon fodder elsewhere in the German Army (as at Dieppe), but it is clear that they were not trusted in their own, locally-raised units and probably did not provide officers.
Good luck on getting him to define what the Germans decided "Polish" meant. Aside from not being able to spell Volksdeutsche even when it is in the link he gives, he also has zero idea of what it meant to the Germans and especially the Wehrmacht. I also doubt he understands the difference between HiWi, Freiwilligen, Osttruppen, and "Turkisch-Truppen".

It is kinda interesting reading the thinly veiled neo-Nazi (excuse me, "Alt-Right") rhetoric though. It's helping me prepare for the 2020 election onslaught of such critters here in the States.
Your post mostly confirms what I said. I mean, I'm saying that the collaborators were the same size as the red army.

Let me know which one of these sounds ridiculous-

1. Peak strength of the red army was 6 million

2. Nkvd, penal and blocking units numbered around 4m and spent a lot of time killing other Soviets

3. Another 2-3m were Ostruppen, Hiwi, Slav SS, local occupation troops

4. Adding (2) and (3) together you get basically the same number of Soviets killing each other was about the same as the peak strength of the army

5. At the peak, about Half the axis forces in the east were Romanians, finns, poles, collaborators and other non-German ethnicities.

6. Even within the Wehrmact there were at least 500k foreign volunteers and the Wehrmact had a peak strength of 3m in the east.

7. 500k Wehrmact died in just two battles (Stalingrad/Leningrad). 200k in Barbarossa, 300k in Rzhev. There are also another 1m Wehrmact pow deaths probably at least partly included as KIA.

8. By (7), a third, more likely half, of the German Wehrmact losses occured in the first year of the war and the rest was mostly Germany running away and leaving things to other Axis. Ukraine, for example, was mostly defended by Romania, Poland had only 500k defenders which presumably included a lot of Volksdeutsche, Berlin had only 45000 defenders.

9. In conclusion the history channel understanding of ww2 is wrong. Soviets mostly killed each other, Germans mostly ran away.
All points sound ridiculous.ONE exemple:peak strength of the Red Army
December 1941 : 8.923.000
November 1942 : 10.609.000
January 1944 : 11.010.000
January 1945 : 11.409.000
Or take point 8 : German losses in 1941:824000 ( without Finland and LW ) ,in 1942 : 1.1 million, 1943 : 1.7 million
Point 6 :peak strength of the Ostheer (without LW ) was higher than 3 million ) some 3,3 million in June 1941.
Point 7 : POW deaths are included in the number of MIA, not in the KIA.
It's hard to see how they would do that, there is not a way to distinguish Mia/kia. This is not the Fort Knox of accounting practices.

Image

The difference between your numbers and mine is the massive Soviet force doing nothing in Siberia.

And you only responded to about half the points.

ljadw
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Re: Ostfront was overrated

Post by ljadw » 09 Nov 2019 20:01

You were talking about the peak strength of the Red Army, not about the Soviet combat forces .
You said that the WM had a peak strength of 3 million, now you are giving figures for the Ostheer and its allies . That is comparing apples to kiwis .
Other point : you can't compare Soviet army with allies to German army with allies,because in 1941,1942,1943 the Soviet Army had NO allies .
And your force ratios are also wrong : there were in november 1942 no 6.124.000 Soviets fighting against the Axis forces .There were 6.124.000 Soviet soldiers in the regions west of the Urals.

ljadw
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Re: Ostfront was overrated

Post by ljadw » 09 Nov 2019 20:18

Point 7 : it is wrong to claim that 500000 Germans died in the ''battles '' of Leningrad and Stalingrad .Correct could be to say that the Germans lost 500000 men in these ''battles ''.And the Germans did not lose 300000 dead during the several battles of Rzhev'.
You are also wrong ,twice, about the 1 million German POWs that were included in the numbers of KIA .
KIA were soldiers of whom it was proved that they died in combat .
POWs were MIA,as no one on German and Soviet side knew who was taken POWs .
The number of 1 million POWs who died in captivity is an unproved claim ,as even the Maschke commission could not determine the number of POWs who died in captivity .And Maschke was a nazi ,thus not very reliable. Overmans, also unreliable, said that 1 million was the maximum that was possible .
Soviet figures are 370000 dead POWs .

mustang19
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Location: Usa

Re: Ostfront was overrated

Post by mustang19 » 09 Nov 2019 22:12

ljadw wrote:
09 Nov 2019 20:18
Point 7 : it is wrong to claim that 500000 Germans died in the ''battles '' of Leningrad and Stalingrad .Correct could be to say that the Germans lost 500000 men in these ''battles ''.And the Germans did not lose 300000 dead during the several battles of Rzhev'.
You are also wrong ,twice, about the 1 million German POWs that were included in the numbers of KIA .
KIA were soldiers of whom it was proved that they died in combat .
POWs were MIA,as no one on German and Soviet side knew who was taken POWs .
The number of 1 million POWs who died in captivity is an unproved claim ,as even the Maschke commission could not determine the number of POWs who died in captivity .And Maschke was a nazi ,thus not very reliable. Overmans, also unreliable, said that 1 million was the maximum that was possible .
Soviet figures are 370000 dead POWs .
None of that seems to change the point that most of the German role ended after the first real battle (Stalingrad).

And the 4m nkvd/blocking/other Soviets-killing-soviets plus the 2-3m outright collaborators means 7m Soviets-killing-soviets versus how many actually doing their jobs? Plus Soviet scorched Earth tactics that probably caused massive deaths in their own side.

And lj seems to not even contradict this.

ljadw
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Re: Ostfront was overrated

Post by ljadw » 10 Nov 2019 07:03

The claim that the cheka had a manpower of 4 million is totally ridiculous .
And no historian will say that Stalingrad was the first real battle .

mustang19
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Re: Ostfront was overrated

Post by mustang19 » 10 Nov 2019 07:58

ljadw wrote:
10 Nov 2019 07:03
The claim that the cheka had a manpower of 4 million is totally ridiculous .
And no historian will say that Stalingrad was the first real battle .
The nkvd was over a million, penal and blocking were similar size.

ljadw
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Re: Ostfront was overrated

Post by ljadw » 10 Nov 2019 10:53

First you said 4 million, now you talk about 2 million .

ljadw
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Re: Ostfront was overrated

Post by ljadw » 10 Nov 2019 10:59

penal units total strenth during the war was 422700 men,and they were a part of the armed forces,thus you can't count them separately .

mustang19
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Re: Ostfront was overrated

Post by mustang19 » 10 Nov 2019 15:53

ljadw wrote:
10 Nov 2019 10:53
First you said 4 million, now you talk about 2 million .
What?
ljadw wrote:
10 Nov 2019 10:59
penal
https://www.stalingrad.net/russian-hq/t ... albat.html

They often attacked through minefields as "tramplers", whose bodies by the
score marked the passage of the Red Army through a field. In the assault on the
"Cauldron" at Stalingrad sixteen penal battalions were concentrated in the 21st
Soviet Army area and twenty-three in the 65th Army area on the Don Front.
Official Soviet army casualties during the war were listed as 20 million
but were actually much higher, including the penal battalions, whose
statistics were not kept. Gorbachev gave another figure, 27 million, in May
1991. In most Soviet attacks, several penal battalions were completely wiped
out.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_W ... viet_Union

The figures for losses due to Soviet repression do not include 1 million military deaths of men drafted from the Gulag into penal suicide battalions.[191]:179

Your number is probably the number drawn from the red army and doesn't include drawn from the gulag.

ljadw
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Re: Ostfront was overrated

Post by ljadw » 10 Nov 2019 19:06

Applebaum is not reliable ,neither is Zemskof.
The Gulag population in 1940 was some 2,5 million. As not all people drafted from the Gulag into ''suicide '' batallions died during the war,1 million Gulag deaths would mean that some 60 % of the GUlag population was leaving the camps. Something I refuse to believe til I see proofs,claims are not sufficient .Besides, these 1 million victims were not killed by the Soviets, but by the Germans .

mustang19
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Re: Ostfront was overrated

Post by mustang19 » 10 Nov 2019 20:08

ljadw wrote:
10 Nov 2019 19:06
Applebaum is not reliable ,neither is Zemskof.
The Gulag population in 1940 was some 2,5 million. As not all people drafted from the Gulag into ''suicide '' batallions died during the war,1 million Gulag deaths would mean that some 60 % of the GUlag population was leaving the camps. Something I refuse to believe til I see proofs,claims are not sufficient .Besides, these 1 million victims were not killed by the Soviets, but by the Germans .
Alright all these *unreliable* historians.

How many Soviets died running from the blocking units and not fighting? Their equipment was fine, there's no reason for their lopsided casualty ratios. The 2:1 loss rate in most battles is because they were forced to be there and not actually fighting. So basically half the red army was a penal unit. Even when penals were disbanded in 44 the nkvd was still "assisting" the offensive.

If you conscript someone who doesn't want to be there and threaten to kill them if they don't get shelled that's basically killing them.

So I think a lot of the lopsided loss ratios are due to the aforementioned...

Also, the Soviets could have evacuated Leningrad in a few days if they didn't wait until the ice froze. Just twenty boats carrying a hundred people ten times a day for a month is everyone who starved.

The combination of blocking units, scorched Earth, and delayed evacuation probably killed more people than just leaving them alone and letting climate destroy the Nazis.

By the way, the Soviet pow deaths are computed as the 3m missing pows, despite a similar number joining the Nazis and few of the liberated pows being convicted of collaboration... Implying most of the missing pows were just hiwis that ran off somewhere.

Sid Guttridge
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Re: Ostfront was overrated

Post by Sid Guttridge » 11 Nov 2019 11:47

Hi Mustang19,

You appear to have missed my not inconsiderable earlier post, so here it is again:

"There were no original sources in your links replying to me (though you do rather better later in other replies).

Furthermore, you have cherry picked the AHF link.

You only quote where it says, "In total up to 500,000 Poles served in the Wehrmacht during WW2." However, it concludes by saying, "The exact number of Poles who died while serving in Wehrmacht is still unknown, but is estimated (basing on partial data, fragmentary sources) as much more than 100,000." Why did you miss out the last bit?

We also need your definition of "Polish". Are you including people of Polish descent from the Alt Reich, most of whom were German speakers by 1939? Or all those with Polish citizenship in 1939, which includes millions of Ukrainians, Byelorussians, Jews, etc., etc.? Or those who chose to apply for recognition as German under the VOMI during the war? Are you including all the non-Polish Slavs such as the Gorals, who were in Poland in 1939? What about the Slavic Wends, who were inside the Alt Reich? What about those of mixed origin, which may have included much or most of the border populations? Etc., etc., etc.

It seems clear that there were not anything like 500,000 self-identifying Poles in the Wehrmacht in WWII. Indeed, self-identifying Poles would almost certainly have been automatically excluded from the Wehrmacht.

On the other hand there are all sorts of grey areas (as outlined two paragraphs above) that allow you some leeway.

So, who are you counting as Poles?

Cheers,

Sid.

Art
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Re: Ostfront was overrated

Post by Art » 11 Nov 2019 17:21

ljadw wrote:
10 Nov 2019 19:06
Applebaum is not reliable ,neither is Zemskof.
I don't see why Zemskov is unreliable.
The Gulag population in 1940 was some 2,5 million. As not all people drafted from the Gulag into ''suicide '' batallions died during the war,1 million Gulag deaths would mean that some 60 % of the GUlag population was leaving the camps.
According to the Gulag's chief Nasedkin:

"At the start of the war the total number of people held in the correction camps and colonies was 2 300 000. By 1st July 1944 it decreased to 1 200 000.
...
During the tree years of the war 975 000 men were taken to the Red Army"
https://www.alexanderyakovlev.org/fond/ ... oc/1009222

The other thing is that "suicide battalions" are a fantasy. Those people had their jail term expired so they were full-fledged citizens not different from the others.

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