Artillerie-Regiment KStN, 1939-1942

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CNE503
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Re: Artillerie-Regiment KStN, 1939-1942

Post by CNE503 » 19 Nov 2019 20:53

Leo's tables give clear figures:
- 144 troopers for a light howitzer battery;
- 176 troopers for a heavy one;
- 522 troopers for a light howitzer battalion (including calibration section and signal platoon BUT NOT including light artillery transport column);
- 620 troopers for a heavy howitzer battalion (including the same support units).

Gary's document give the following figures respectively:
- 171;
- 194;
- 609 (possibly including a light artillery transport column but I doubt that, since this support unit numbered between 100 and 150 troopers);
- 678 (same as above).

So, there are two solutions:
1) Leo's tables, while precious, are wrong on this point, lacking 87 troopers in a light artillery battalion, 58 in a heavy one (mostly enlisted);
2) Gary's figures are accurate but don't correspond to the 2. Welle post-mobilization establishment (either because they're incorporating light artillery transport columns or another subunit that Leo didn't take into account) and Leo's description is right.

I have not enough information to decide whose one is the right one.
Regards,
CNE503
"Sicut Aquila" / "Ils s'instruisent pour vaincre" / "par l'exemple, le coeur et la raison" / "Labor Omnia Vincit"

CNE503
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Re: Artillerie-Regiment KStN, 1939-1942

Post by CNE503 » 19 Nov 2019 21:12

If I could bring some additional questions:
- Gary's document states that there were 8 Beamte for an artillery regiment. Since there were two of them for each of the four battalions, it means that the regimental staff hadn't any of them, while Leo identified one of them (in the regimental headquarters combat train);
- it counts 331 NCOs in the four battalions, so it means that there were 17 of them in the regimental headquarters to reach the figure of 348 (I guess including the signal platoon and the weather section). Leo counted 16 of them;
- it counts 2086 enlisted in the four battalions, so it means that there were 104 of them in the regimental headquarters to reach the figure of 2190. Leo counted 91 of them.

If I counted well Leo's tables, of course.

Since the differences are slight, it is probably because some reconstruction hypothesis were wrong, but barely.
But they are important considering the battalions (87 for a light howitzer one, 58 for a heavy one) and I don't know where the mistake can be...

Regards,
CNE503
"Sicut Aquila" / "Ils s'instruisent pour vaincre" / "par l'exemple, le coeur et la raison" / "Labor Omnia Vincit"

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Re: Artillerie-Regiment KStN, 1939-1942

Post by Max104740 » 21 Nov 2019 15:54

Hi CNE503,
I think that between the numbers found by Gary and Leo details there is the differences you are underlining. The differences are prevalently in the battalion HQ units and in the batterries and in the number of men and horses, not in the weapon. The only person that may explain these differences is Leo himself. In any case I would not speak of a mistaken reconstruction, because the available data to do it were very poor.
Regards
Max

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Re: Artillerie-Regiment KStN, 1939-1942

Post by Max104740 » 22 Nov 2019 20:28

I have just found an interesting document in germandocsinrussia about the artillery battalion headquarters units:
http://wwii.germandocsinrussia.org/de/n ... ect/zoom/4
I hope that someone more expert than me can understand it better than how I can
regards
Max

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Re: Artillerie-Regiment KStN, 1939-1942

Post by CNE503 » 23 Nov 2019 13:17

Christoph Awender's website presents KStN 403(O) v.1.10.1937 (Stab einer leichten Artillerieabteilung [Ostpreussen]) with a manpower strength of 6/2/8/33//49.
Leo's table for the Reich version of the same entity gives 7/2/8/27//44.

CNE503
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Gary Kennedy
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Re: Artillerie-Regiment KStN, 1939-1942

Post by Gary Kennedy » 23 Nov 2019 16:50

Greg Singh posted the below image on another thread. It appears to be undated but was reckoned to represent 1938-39 rather than 1941.

viewtopic.php?f=50&t=211072&hilit=KStN+batterie

Max's link looks to offer some good detail on the Staff and Staff Battery of a Light or Heavy Battalion, but not the firing Batteries.

I've had a look at the list of artillery KStN from Tessin on Leo's site and would assume (excluding motorised units) these are the ones involved for Infantry Divs;

401 - Staff, Arty Regt - 01 Oct 37
403(R) - Staff, Light Arty Bn - 01 Oct 37
403(O) - Staff, Light Arty Bn - 01 Oct 37
403(Lw) - Staff, Ldw Arty Bn - 01 Oct 37
405(R) - Staff, Heavy Arty Bn - 01 Oct 37
405(O) - Staff, Heavy Arty Bn - 01 Oct 37

433(R) - Light FH Bty (4 guns) - 01 Oct 38
433(O) - Light FH Bty (4 guns) - 01 Oct 38
433(Lw) - Ldw Bty (4 guns) - 01 Oct 38

459 - Heavy FH Bty (4 guns) - 01 Oct 38
460 - Heavy Bty (long?) (4 guns) - 01 Oct 38

456 - Heavy FH Bty or 10-cm Kan Bty (4 guns) - 01 Oct 39

506 - Light Arty Column (32t) (O) - 01 Oct 37
506(Lw) - Light Arty Column (32t) (Lw) - 01 Oct 37

551(Lw) - Sig Pl Ldw Arty Regt - 01 Oct 37
553 - Sig Pl Lt or Hvy Bn - 01 Oct 37
553 (Lw) - Sig Pl Ldw Arty Bn - 01 Oct 37

528 - Survey Tp - 01 May 33
528 (Lw) - Ldw Survey Tp - 01 May 33

I won't pretend to be sure that's a comprehensive list, but it does give an indication of how many sets of KStN there were to create a full Artillery Regt, and how many different combinations there were of Artillery Regt. One thing that does catch my eye is that the firing Btys are from 1938, while Bn HQ Staffs are from 1937. That may help explain the drift in personnel totals and ranks within Btys, as there must be older organisations used for Btys in 1937.

Gary
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Re: Artillerie-Regiment KStN, 1939-1942

Post by CNE503 » 24 Nov 2019 21:06

An artillery regiment had not its own music band, right?
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Re: Artillerie-Regiment KStN, 1939-1942

Post by Max104740 » 25 Nov 2019 16:18

Hi Gary and CNE503,
I think that in Gary’s list the only missing KStN in the artillery of a standard Infantry Division is 551 of October 37, Nachr. Zug / Stab Art. Rgts.
Regarding the band, I have never seen it in this unit, I find it only in the artillery Regiment of Gebirgsjager Division 1 in 41, http://wwii.germandocsinrussia.org/de/n ... ect/zoom/4. In this 41 Gliederung in the artillery Regiment of standard infantry divisions I see also print troop ( KStN 527 of December 34) and meteo platoon (KStN 538) or troop (KStN 531) but they are not present in 1939 Gliederung ( http://wwii.germandocsinrussia.org/de/n ... /grid/zoom) also for the Divisions without an organic Observation Battalion, but this Gliederung may be a simplified one, without “minor” units (it does not show a Musikkorps in any divisions)?
I hope this is useful for you.
Regards
Max

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Re: Artillerie-Regiment KStN, 1939-1942

Post by CNE503 » 25 Nov 2019 20:31

You're right, but it seems odd to me that each of the infantry regiments did possess a band, and not the artillery one...
CNE503
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Re: Artillerie-Regiment KStN, 1939-1942

Post by Max104740 » 25 Nov 2019 22:15

Hi CNE503, the Kriegsgliederung 41 seems clear, only in one Gebirgs Division we have a band in the artillery regiment, with a band in each infantry regiment in divisions of welle 1, 2 (here we find a band in some pioneer batallion, too) and in mountain division, in following welle the number of infantry regiments with band decreases, arriving at no regiment with band in Welle 13 and 14 (but with a band under the division HQ), I have no clear explanation for this evidence. The Kriegsgliederung of 39 is, in my opinion, simply missing this information. In another file, http://wwii.germandocsinrussia.org/de/n ... ect/zoom/4, you see a standard 38 Gliederung similar to the 41 ones.
I hope this was useful for you,
regards
Max

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Re: Artillerie-Regiment KStN, 1939-1942

Post by Leo Niehorster » 01 Dec 2019 09:28

Here's how I reconstructed most of the missing KStN. I was going for presumed internal organization [*] as much as possible. I never correlated the internal numbers, as there was no way to determine exactly where missing personnel or equipment were located. One could speculate further, I suppose, but that was never my intention.

In some cases, it was easy, as one type of unit available for that period was very similar to another, merely having different equipment. Others were more difficult.

The KStN themselves were also made, at least in part, of building blocks. For example, a command echelon, a signal echelon, combat ehcelons, and trains echelons.

For those units without a located KStN, I attempted to find these mini-building blocks that they probably had. In some cases, only the same KStN of much later dates were available. I used those internal compositions, but using building blocks of 1930s vintage, (even assuming I found those), to depict the missing KStN. Only a highly unlikely coincidence could possibly have the totals match the numbers of that era.


--
Leo
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Re: Artillerie-Regiment KStN, 1939-1942

Post by CNE503 » 01 Dec 2019 10:48

Leo,

No harm done, you did an amazing work, not only helpful but essential on this matter.
But I'm digging deeper, that's why I made comparisons and I tried to understand ins and outs of this KStN.

For now, as indicated above, I found differences between your reconstructed KStN and the official figures that could be found (first your figures, then those provided by archival material):
- 2. Welle Infanterie-Division light howitzer battery: 144 vs. 171;
- 2. Welle Infanterie-Division heavy howitzer battery: 176 vs. 194;
- 2. Welle Infanterie-Division light howitzer battalion: 522 vs.609 (including calibration section and signal platoon);
- 2. Welle Infanterie-Division heavy howitzer battalion: 620 vs. 678 (including the same support units).

Most of the differences stay in the batteries (with 144 instead of 171, it will provide a lack of 81 troopers in the whole light battalion, so most of the 87 troopers lacking in it; and it is 54 out of 58 for the heavy one), so I guess there is a lacking subunit (because there was no additional howitzer).

Very best regards,
CNE503
"Sicut Aquila" / "Ils s'instruisent pour vaincre" / "par l'exemple, le coeur et la raison" / "Labor Omnia Vincit"

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Re: Artillerie-Regiment KStN, 1939-1942

Post by KStN201 » 03 Dec 2019 20:25

Gents,
I thought I would add my tuppence worth to this debate!

A few things to consider:

1. Leo’s point that some of his KStNs were reconstructions using basic building blocks means that we can’t compare his reconstructions with actual numbers.

2. Another point is timing. KStNs varied over time and were also amended by AHM which means that as Leo has pointed out before you are always shooting at a moving target to pin down numbers exactly.

3. There are frequent typos and transcription errors in some of these lists so that they can’t be taken as gospel. I take the view that if numbers are replicated in, say, three different sources, then they can be assumed to be reliable (until proven otherwise!).

4. The mention of 2 Welle isn’t particularly relevant to this debate since Welle may have simply had a different combination of KStN. The KStN itself wouldn’t have varied by Welle.

I have attached a screenshot of a document from September 1939 showing a breakdown of an artillery regiment (1). I have also attached a spreadsheet adding up the numbers from this document and they agree (!) with the listing already published by Gary.

I have noted the relevant KStN number beside each unit.

I have the following comments to make re each KStN:

401, 551, 403(R), 553, 528, 433(R), 405(R), 459(R) – the numbers in this summary agree with all other lists I have seen (no KStNs available).
538 – the numbers agree with a breakdown shown in KStN 540 dated 31/3/40.
527 – the numbers agree with a breakdown shown in KStN 540 dated 31/3/40.

My conclusion therefore, is that the numbers shown here are accurate (verified by other sources & KStNs) and can therefore be used for reconstructing KStNs.

Hopefully this is useful!

(1) Source: Germandocsinrussia.org 12477/A192 page 7

Dave
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Re: Artillerie-Regiment KStN, 1939-1942

Post by Max104740 » 04 Dec 2019 18:20

Hi to everybody,
I agree with Dave on everything, that it is not possible to pretend that Leo's reconstruction is the same of actual number, that the KStN list in Gary post, and in Leo books, is correct and that the total are shown in Dave last contribution, that gives total figures that are the same of Gary's ones (there is only a difference of 12 horse driven vehicles for each artillery Battalion between them: as the guns, probably the difference derives from the gun limbers, accounted for in Gary's data and not in Dave).
I have only a last curiosity: where did Dave find the bike in the Regiment HQ?
Regards
Max

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Re: Artillerie-Regiment KStN, 1939-1942

Post by CNE503 » 04 Dec 2019 20:46

Impressive thank you Dave!
And thank you everybody.
CNE503
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