2.Panzer-Division/38.Pz.Jg.Abt.

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yantaylor
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Re: 2.Panzer-Division/38.Pz.Jg.Abt.

Post by yantaylor » 17 Oct 2020 19:21

I bet Mike, I have been told by some on this board that George is a nice guy and probably regrets printing this work. When I first bought them, I got them really cheap, I got the panzer division, Infantry divisions and SS Divisions for less than £2.

It also says in his book that the 2. panzer had 10 StuG IIIs, but I don't see them in the 38.Pz.Jg.-Abt, so are they in the HQ of the 3. Pz regt. ?

Ian

Sam Wren
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Re: 2.Panzer-Division/38.Pz.Jg.Abt.

Post by Sam Wren » 17 Oct 2020 19:38

Here are two photos of 2.PD Grilles taken from Fred's book along with the commentary from the book:

Photographie, prise lors de manœuvres effectuées en mai 1944 par la 9. (IG) Kompanie du Panzer-Grenadier Regiment 304 et ses automoteurs Grille 38 (t) Ausf. H (Sd.Kfz. 138/1). L'engin est en position de tir, hausse haute, devant un groupe d'officiers dont le Leutnant Jorg qui regarde ld photographe.

Photograph taken during maneuvers carried out in May 1944 by the 9. (IG) Kompanie of the Panzer-Grenadier Regiment 304 and its self-propelled Grille 38 (t) Ausf. H (Sd.Kfz. 138/1). The vehicle is in firing position, raised high, in front of a group of officers including Leutnant Jorg who is looking at the photographer.
Deprun - 2. Panzer-Division Tome 1, Pg 206 copy.jpg
Photographie technique, prise par le renseignement britannique, montrant un auotmoteur Grille 38 (t) Ausf. H (Sd.Kfz. 138/1), engin B (sic) de la 9.(IG) Kompanie du Panzer-Grenadier-Regiment 304, capture en août 1944 à l'ouest de la Poche de Chambois/Argentan. Le chenillé porte le Trident blanc et le signe tactique de l'artillerie mécanisée sur les plaques de blindage. Cet engin était placé en soutien de proximité des lignes des Panzergrenadiere.

Technical photograph, taken by British intelligence, showing a Grille 38 (t) Ausf H self-propelled gun (Sd.Kfz.138/1), vehicle B (sic) of the 9. (IG) Kompanie of the Panzer-Grenadier-Regiment 304, captured in August 1944 west of the Chambois/Argentan pocket. The vehicle carries the white trident and the tactical sign of mechanized artillery on the armor plates. This vehicle was placed in close support of the Panzergrenadier lines.
Deprun - 2. Panzer-Division Tome 1, Pg 207 copy.jpg
And here is the June 1944 Gliederung:
img001.jpg
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yantaylor
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Re: 2.Panzer-Division/38.Pz.Jg.Abt.

Post by yantaylor » 17 Oct 2020 20:05

Thank you Sam, I will need to check out Leo's site for German symbols.

Ian

Sam Wren
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Re: 2.Panzer-Division/38.Pz.Jg.Abt.

Post by Sam Wren » 17 Oct 2020 20:54

This is the organization of Pz.AA 2 according to Pg 74-75 of Fred's book (translated). The numbers on the vehicles, where present, is indicated in parentheses:

Material organization of the Panzer-Aufklärungs-Abteillung 2

Abteilungs-Stab: (KStN 1109 (gp) / 01-11-1943): 2 x 251/3, 1 x 251/8 (01, 02, 03)
Stabsnachrichtenzug: 1 x Sd.Kfz. 263 unmarked, 2 x 251/3 (05, 06)
Stabskompanie: 3 x 251/3, 2 x 251/11, 2 x 250/3 (07, 08 and 11,12,13,14)

1. (s.Pz.Späh.) Kompanie (KStN 1162a / 01-10-1943: the numbering sequence of the 37 vehicles of the 1. Kompanie Panzerspähwagen (PSW) is as follows:
Kompanie-Führer: 1 x Sd.Kfz 222 without marking, 1 x Sd.Kfz. 234/2 Puma (101)
I. Zug 1 x Sd.Kfz. 232 + 6 x Sd.Kfz. 234/2 Puma
Zug-Führer: without marking
1. Trupp (111, 112)
2. Trupp (121, 122)
3. Trupp (131, 132)
II. Zug 1 x Sd.Kfz. 232 + 6 x Sd.Kfz. 234/2 Puma
Zug-Führer: without marking
4. Trupp (141, 142)
5. Trupp (151, 152)
6. Trupp (161, 162)
III. Zug 1 x Sd.Kfz. 232 + 6 x Sd.Kfz. 234/2 Puma
Zug-Führer: without marking
7. Trupp (171, 172)
8. Trupp (181, 182)
9. Trupp (191, 192)
IV. Zug 1 x Sd.Kfz. 232 + 6 x Sd.Kfz. 234/2 Puma
Zug-Führer: without marking
10. Trupp (1101, 1102)
11. Trupp (1111, 1112)
12. Trupp (1121, 1122)
V. Zug 1 x Sd.Kfz. 232 + 6 x Sd.Kfz. 233 Stummel
Zug-Führer: without marking
13. Trupp (1131, 1132)
14. Trupp (1141, 1142)
15. Trupp (1151, 1152)

2. (Pz.Späh.) Kompanie: (KStN 1162c / 01-11-1943: the numbering sequence of the 30 vehicles of the 2. Mixed Kompanie is as follows:
Kompanie-Führer: 2 x Sd.Kfz 250/3 (201, 202)
I. Zug: 4 x Sd.Kfz. 222
1. Zug-Führer: (211)
1. Zug-Trupp (212, 213, 214)
II. Zug: 6 x Sd.Kfz. 250/1
Zug-Führer: (231), Trupp-Führer: (241)
1. Zug-Trupp (232, 233)
2. Zug-Trupp (242, 243)
III. Zug: 8 x 250/9
Zug-Führer: (251)
1. Zug-Trupp (252, 253, 254)
2. Trupp-Führer: (281)
2. Zug-Trupp (282, 283,284)
IV. Zug: 8 x Sd.Kfz. 250/9
1. Zug-Führer (271)
1. Zug-Trupp (272, 273, 274)
2. Trupp-Führer (281)
2. Zug-Trupp (282, 283, 284)

3. (Aufkl.) Kompanie: (KStN 1113 (gp.) 1-11-1943: the numbering sequence of the 31 vehicles of the 3. Kompanie (leichte Schützenpanzerwagen) is as follows:
Kompanie-Führer: 2 x Sd.Kfz 250/3 (301, 302)
I. Zug: 8 x Sd.Kfz. 250/1
Zug-Führer: (311), Trupp-Führer: (312)
1. Zug-Trupp (313, 314)
2. Zug-Trupp (315, 316)
3. Zug-Trupp (317, 318)
II. Zug: 8 x Sd.Kfz. 250/1
Zug-Führer: (321), Trupp-Führer: (322)
1. Zug-Trupp (323, 324)
2. Zug-Trupp (325, 326)
3. Zug-Trupp (327, 328)
III. Zug: 8 x Sd.Kfz. 250/1
Zug-Führer: (331), Trupp-Führer: (332)
1. Zug-Trupp (333, 334)
2. Zug-Trupp (335, 336)
3. Zug-Trupp (337, 338)
IV. Zug: 5 x Sd.Kfz. 250/7
Zug-Führer: (341)
1. Zug-Trupp (342, 343, 344, 345)
V. Zug: 2 Panzer-Pioniere Truppen on LKW

4. (Aufkl.) Kompanie: (KStN 1113 (gp.) 1-11-1943: the numbering sequence of the 30 vehicles of the 3. Kompanie (leichte Schützenpanzerwagen) is as follows:
Kompanie-Führer: 2 x Sd.Kfz 250/3 (401, 402)
I. Zug: 8 x Sd.Kfz. 250/1
Zug-Führer: (411), Trupp-Führer: (412)
1. Zug-Trupp (413, 414)
2. Zug-Trupp (415, 416)
3. Zug-Trupp (417, 418)
II. Zug: 8 x Sd.Kfz. 250/1
Zug-Führer: (421), Trupp-Führer: (422)
1. Zug-Trupp (423, 424)
2. Zug-Trupp (425, 426)
3. Zug-Trupp (427, 428)
III. Zug: 8 x Sd.Kfz. 250/1
Zug-Führer: (431), Trupp-Führer: (432)
1. Zug-Trupp (433, 434)
2. Zug-Trupp (435, 436)
3. Zug-Trupp (437, 438)
IV. Zug: 5 x Sd.Kfz. 250/7
Zug-Führer: (441)
1. Zug-Trupp (442, 443, 444)

5. (schwere) Kompanie: (KStN not known): The numbering sequence of the 26 vehicles of the 5. Kompanie (schwere Schützenpanzerwagen) is as follows:
Kompanie-Führer: 1 x Sd.Kfz 251/3, 1 x 251/11 (501, 502)
I. (gep.) Pionier-Zug: 6 x Sd.Kfz. 251/7 (511-517)
II. schw.Pz.Inf.Zug: 6 x Sd.Kfz. 251/1, 3 x. s.Pak 40 (521-525)
III. le.IG Zug: 5 x Sd.Kfz. 250/1, 2 le. IG 18 7.5 cm (531-535)
IV. schw.Kan Zug: 5 x Sd.Kfz. 250/7 (541-545)

On June 4 the 5. Kompanie lost part of its schwere-Kanonen-Zug (heavy anti-tank platoon): personnel were dispatched and 3 guns were transferred to the 3./Panzerjäger-Bataillon 38. The Kompanie was equipped with 6 7.5 cm le.G.18 guns and had only 2 of these on June 1, 1944 for an unknown reason. There were a total of 8 medium mortars listed with the two leichte SPW companies from Panzer-Aufklärungs-Abteilung 2, which means that it probably had up to 8 x Sd.Kfz. 250/7 mortar mounts available.

yantaylor
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Re: 2.Panzer-Division/38.Pz.Jg.Abt.

Post by yantaylor » 18 Oct 2020 12:59

Wow! Mike, I didn’t expect anything as detailed as that, it even has the vehicle numbers which I needed for sourcing decals, outstanding!
Thank you.
Ian

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Re: 2.Panzer-Division/38.Pz.Jg.Abt.

Post by yantaylor » 18 Oct 2020 14:42

Mike, I forgot to ask you, who is Fred and which book are you getting your info from.
There are two more types of units which I need to complete my data from, obviously the panzer regiment and also one of the Pz.Gren regiments.
I am building a armoured Pz. grenadier company and a motorized Pz. grenadier company and I think that both the grenadier regiments in 2. Pz had both types of units.

Ian

yantaylor
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Re: 2.Panzer-Division/38.Pz.Jg.Abt.

Post by yantaylor » 18 Oct 2020 20:12

Was the six 7.5 cm le.G.18 guns really the 7.5cm leichte Feldkanone/ leFK 18?

I have found Fred's book in an earlier post, but my French is limited, well really limited actually, I can't read a word.

Ian

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Re: 2.Panzer-Division/38.Pz.Jg.Abt.

Post by Sam Wren » 19 Oct 2020 02:23

Ian,

The Sd.Kfz. 233 of the V.Zug of the 1.Kompanie were armed with the 7.5cm Kanone 37 (Sfl.) which was a new mount developed from 7.5cm StuK L/24 which had been produced for Stürmgeschutz production (according to Panzertracts 13-2).

The Sd.Kfz 251/9 of the IV.Zug of the 5./Kompanie were also armed with the 7.5cm Kanone 37 L/24 left over from StuG production, but starting in Dec. 1943 this was replaced with the purpose-built 7.5 cm Kanone 51 (according to Panzertracts 15-3).
yantaylor wrote:
18 Oct 2020 20:12
Was the six 7.5 cm le.G.18 guns really the 7.5cm leichte Feldkanone/ leFK 18?
In the III. (le.IG) Zug of the 5.Kompanie there were 2 (not six) towed 7.5 cm le.IG 18 (leichte Infanteriegeschütz) or light infantry support guns.

As others have mentioned, Nafziger (at least his book The German Order of Battle: Panzers and Artillery in World War II. Greenhill Books, 1995, which is the only one that I have) is dated and very unreliable. I would not accept any info from it without independent verification from - preferably - primary sources. I do not endorse Fred's books
heimdal-2019-deprun-frederic-2-panzer-division-tome-1-couverture-definitive.png
as the ultimate authority as I have not examined it carefully, but he did he did have access to a large amount of information from veterans
img001 2.jpg
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Re: 2.Panzer-Division/38.Pz.Jg.Abt.

Post by Alanmccoubrey » 19 Oct 2020 17:12

Sam, great of you to pass all of this on. 2 PD is one of the many reasons that I wonder about the 7,5cm Kannone 51 actually entering production in December 1943. That weapon was also fitted to the 250/8 and 234/3 and none of those enetred service before the summer of 1944 and there is no photographic evidence that the 251/9 with it did either. As you point out 2 PD had the earlier version and yet its 251s it had in Normandy were issued between January and March 1944 (I'm ignoring the 251/16 issued earlier of course). To me this points to a much later entry into production of the K51 type, regardless of when any contracts for it may have been signed.
Alan

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Re: 2.Panzer-Division/38.Pz.Jg.Abt.

Post by Tanker Mike » 19 Oct 2020 20:44

Sam Wren wrote:
19 Oct 2020 02:23
I do not endorse Fred's books as the ultimate authority as I have not examined it carefully, but he did he did have access to a large amount of information from veterans
Sam,

Perhaps I misunderstand, but what do you mean when say that you do not endorse Fred's books?

Mike
"It is well that war is so terrible, or we would grow too fond of it."
— General Robert E. Lee

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Re: 2.Panzer-Division/38.Pz.Jg.Abt.

Post by Sam Wren » 19 Oct 2020 23:35

the rest of the sentence is below the image of the book cover: "....as the ultimate authority as I have not examined it carefully, but he did he did have access to a large amount of information from veterans"

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Re: 2.Panzer-Division/38.Pz.Jg.Abt.

Post by yantaylor » 20 Oct 2020 14:35

As we can see from the data posted by Sam, the Zug-Fuhrer 250s were all 1s, which shows the lack of a 250/8 Kannon vehicle, but how would the personnel work out with having two 250/1s?
Would the Zug-Trupp have different personnel with having a Zug-Führer 250/1 and a Trupp-Führer 250/1 instead of Zug-Führer 250/1 and a 250/8?

Here is what I got in regards to soldiers in the Zug Trupp:

250/1
Zugführer
Führer
Krankenträger
Melder
Fahrer

250/8
Gesch-Fuhrer
Pz-Schultz
Fahrer

So if we have two 250/1s, which does with out the gunners in the 250/8, would the crew of the 250/1 split between the two 250/1s? Say with three to each 2350/1, or would extra crew be brought in.

Ian

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Re: 2.Panzer-Division/38.Pz.Jg.Abt.

Post by yantaylor » 21 Oct 2020 19:55

I thought that the question above would be a tough one to answer, but I thought that there would be some differences in personnel between a Zug equipped with two Sd.Kfz 250/1s and a Zug equipped with one Sd.Kfz 250/1 and one Sd.Kfz 250/8.

Ian

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Re: 2.Panzer-Division/38.Pz.Jg.Abt.

Post by Alanmccoubrey » 22 Oct 2020 18:37

Ian,you are missing the point here. The 250/8 replaced a 250/10 NOT a 250/1 so why would there be any difference, both the 250/10 and 250/8 needed drivers gunners , etc for a total of three.
Alan

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Re: 2.Panzer-Division/38.Pz.Jg.Abt.

Post by yantaylor » 22 Oct 2020 20:24

Alan, the data supplied in the post by Sam has this;

I. Zug: 8 x Sd. Kfz. 250/1
Zug-Führer: (311), Trupp-Führer: (312) ********************
1. Zug-Trupp (313, 314)
2. Zug-Trupp (315, 316)
3. Zug-Trupp (317, 318)
II. Zug: 8 x Sd. Kfz. 250/1
Zug-Führer: (321), Trupp-Führer: (322)********************
1. Zug-Trupp (323, 324)
2. Zug-Trupp (325, 326)
3. Zug-Trupp (327, 328)
III. Zug: 8 x Sd. Kfz. 250/1
Zug-Führer: (331), Trupp-Führer: (332)**************************
1. Zug-Trupp (333, 334)
2. Zug-Trupp (335, 336)
3. Zug-Trupp (337, 338)

As you can see, there is no 250/10 or 250/8 just two 250/1s, so wouldn't this effect the number of men in the Zug HQ?

Ian

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