Organization of a 1944 Panzeraufklärung-Abteilung

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Der Rittmeister

Organization of a 1944 Panzeraufklärung-Abteilung

#1

Post by Der Rittmeister » 19 Nov 2020, 23:45

Hello! Does anybody have a good overview of the organization of a 1944 Organized Panzeraufklärung-Abteilung? I am wondering what kind of equipment it had and its composition. How many and what kind of different Halftracks and Armored Cars it had.

Dokis79
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Re: Organization of a 1944 Panzeraufklärung-Abteilung

#2

Post by Dokis79 » 19 Nov 2020, 23:57

Here's an overview of the battalion's organization and a summary of the personnel and equipment of the division (including the recon battalion).


Alanmccoubrey
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Re: Organization of a 1944 Panzeraufklärung-Abteilung

#3

Post by Alanmccoubrey » 20 Nov 2020, 12:28

As with most things German you really have to decide which Division you want to look at and exactly what date you want to consider.

As a general rule they had five companies;
the First was wheeled armoured cars (and became the Stabskompanie in mid June 1944 as is shown in the link above), this could have any of the four or eight wheeled armoured cars. SdKfz 221,222,223, 231,232, 233, 234/1, 234/2, 234/3.

the Second(or First after the change already noted ) had was also a "armoured car" company but had the SdKfz 250/9 mixed with 250/5, a couple of Divisions had the LUCHS or the Aufkl.Pz 38 in this company.

the Third and Fourth(the number changed of course as above) were the armoured infantry companies in SdKfz 250 but could also be in Schwimmwagen or VWs.

the Fifth(or Fourth of course) was the Heavy Company with Pioniere, Pak and Cannon Platoons, this latter with SdKfz 251/9 Stummel.

As I said the Division in question is very important to you for to faind out exactly what equipment it had.
Alan

Der Rittmeister

Re: Organization of a 1944 Panzeraufklärung-Abteilung

#4

Post by Der Rittmeister » 20 Nov 2020, 16:31

Thank you. Did the Panzergrenadier Companies have Sd.Kfz. 251/1s as well, or mostly support versions? Did both of the PnzGr. companies have Sd.Kfz. 250 as standard?
Alanmccoubrey wrote:
20 Nov 2020, 12:28
As with most things German you really have to decide which Division you want to look at and exactly what date you want to consider.

As a general rule they had five companies;
the First was wheeled armoured cars (and became the Stabskompanie in mid June 1944 as is shown in the link above), this could have any of the four or eight wheeled armoured cars. SdKfz 221,222,223, 231,232, 233, 234/1, 234/2, 234/3.

the Second(or First after the change already noted ) had was also a "armoured car" company but had the SdKfz 250/9 mixed with 250/5, a couple of Divisions had the LUCHS or the Aufkl.Pz 38 in this company.

the Third and Fourth(the number changed of course as above) were the armoured infantry companies in SdKfz 250 but could also be in Schwimmwagen or VWs.

the Fifth(or Fourth of course) was the Heavy Company with Pioniere, Pak and Cannon Platoons, this latter with SdKfz 251/9 Stummel.

As I said the Division in question is very important to you for to faind out exactly what equipment it had.

Alanmccoubrey
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Re: Organization of a 1944 Panzeraufklärung-Abteilung

#5

Post by Alanmccoubrey » 20 Nov 2020, 16:47

They only had SdKfz 251 in the Heavy Company as tows for the Pak and as the Pioniere vehicle the 251/7. The two armoured infantry companies only had the 250/1 as standard with its support versions such as the 37mm Pak (250/10), the Mortar Carrier(250/7) and later the Stummel(250/8).
Alan

Der Rittmeister

Re: Organization of a 1944 Panzeraufklärung-Abteilung

#6

Post by Der Rittmeister » 25 Nov 2020, 13:52

So, they did not have the Sd.Kfz. 251/22 but had them towed instead. Where did these other versions serve then? In the Gpz. Pz.Gr.Bttl ?

Sd.Kfz. 251/1
Sd.Kfz. 251/2
Sd.Kfz. 251/3
Sd.Kfz. 251/9
Sd.Kfz. 251/7 (Pionier) in Pz.A.A. and Pz.Pi.A. (?)
Sd.Kfz. 251/17
Sd.Kfz. 251/21
Sd.Kfz. 251/22
Alanmccoubrey wrote:
20 Nov 2020, 16:47
They only had SdKfz 251 in the Heavy Company as tows for the Pak and as the Pioniere vehicle the 251/7. The two armoured infantry companies only had the 250/1 as standard with its support versions such as the 37mm Pak (250/10), the Mortar Carrier(250/7) and later the Stummel(250/8).

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Re: Organization of a 1944 Panzeraufklärung-Abteilung

#7

Post by Alanmccoubrey » 25 Nov 2020, 20:06

All those served in the armoured infantry battalion as you say and you've missed the 251/10 off your list, they were still ahnging around.
By the way the Pz Pi was a Bataillon and not an Abteilung.
The SdKfz 251/22 replaced the 251/9 Stummel so it is possible that some filtered through to the PAA very late in the war but really that vehicle isn't worth considering.
Alan

Gary Kennedy
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Re: Organization of a 1944 Panzeraufklärung-Abteilung

#8

Post by Gary Kennedy » 25 Nov 2020, 22:21

There are some summary tables available on germandocsinrussia.com that give figures for halftracks in the various sets of later war KStN tables.

https://wwii.germandocsinrussia.org/de/ ... rid/zoom/1

Gary

akdavis
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Re: Organization of a 1944 Panzeraufklärung-Abteilung

#9

Post by akdavis » 26 Nov 2020, 21:35

Alanmccoubrey wrote:
20 Nov 2020, 12:28
the Third and Fourth(the number changed of course as above) were the armoured infantry companies in SdKfz 250 but could also be in Schwimmwagen or VWs.
Under the Panzer Division 44 org, the 3rd company (formerly 4th company) was authorized to be SdKfz 251-mounted, i.e. KStN 1114 (gp) (fG) rather than KStN 1113 (gp) (fG), but only applicable to late 1944:

https://www.wwiidaybyday.com/kstn/kstn1 ... 1jul44.htm
Last edited by akdavis on 26 Nov 2020, 23:45, edited 1 time in total.

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Harro
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Re: Organization of a 1944 Panzeraufklärung-Abteilung

#10

Post by Harro » 26 Nov 2020, 22:46

All-in-all it was a matter of what equipment was available. For example, the SS-PzAA1 bore little resemblance to what it was supposed to be on paper. I suppose this was the case with many other recce battalions.

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Re: Organization of a 1944 Panzeraufklärung-Abteilung

#11

Post by Alanmccoubrey » 27 Nov 2020, 11:14

akdavis wrote:
26 Nov 2020, 21:35
Alanmccoubrey wrote:
20 Nov 2020, 12:28
the Third and Fourth(the number changed of course as above) were the armoured infantry companies in SdKfz 250 but could also be in Schwimmwagen or VWs.
Under the Panzer Division 44 org, the 3rd company (formerly 4th company) was authorized to be SdKfz 251-mounted, i.e. KStN 1114 (gp) (fG) rather than KStN 1113 (gp) (fG), but only applicable to late 1944:

https://www.wwiidaybyday.com/kstn/kstn1 ... 1jul44.htm
Where does it say there that it was only the 3rd Company so authorised ? The battalion had two armoured recce companies and if the battalion were to change to the KStN 114(gp) dated July 1944 then both could be so mounted. Do you have any evidence of a PAA changing to 1114 ?
Alan

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Harro
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Re: Organization of a 1944 Panzeraufklärung-Abteilung

#12

Post by Harro » 27 Nov 2020, 12:16

In Turnhout in April/May 1944, the 2. (VW) Kompanie of the SS-PzAA1 was to be converted into an armoured reconnaissance company with Sd.Kfz. 250 halftracks but the nattalion received only enough of these vehicles to re-equip the 3. (le.SPW) Kompanie. Instead, the 2. Kompanie had to do with worn out Schwimmwagens and Sd.Kfz. 251 armoured personnel carriers. The company could only field two platoons which were eventually fully outfitted with new Sd.Kfz. 251 armoured personnel carriers shortly before the unit was sent to Normandy. In June the companies were renumbered: the 2. Kompanie became the 3. (SPW) Kompanie whilst the 3. (le.SPW) Kompanie became the 2. (le.SPW) Kompanie. Refitting the le.SPW-Kompanie went smoothly with thirty brand new Sd.Kfz. 250 halftracks.
After the retreat from Normandy, the 2. Kompanie remained the le.SPW-Kompanie but the 3. Kompanie was outfitted with Schwimmwagens

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Re: Organization of a 1944 Panzeraufklärung-Abteilung

#13

Post by akdavis » 27 Nov 2020, 18:47

Alanmccoubrey wrote:
27 Nov 2020, 11:14
akdavis wrote:
26 Nov 2020, 21:35
Alanmccoubrey wrote:
20 Nov 2020, 12:28
the Third and Fourth(the number changed of course as above) were the armoured infantry companies in SdKfz 250 but could also be in Schwimmwagen or VWs.
Under the Panzer Division 44 org, the 3rd company (formerly 4th company) was authorized to be SdKfz 251-mounted, i.e. KStN 1114 (gp) (fG) rather than KStN 1113 (gp) (fG), but only applicable to late 1944:

https://www.wwiidaybyday.com/kstn/kstn1 ... 1jul44.htm
Where does it say there that it was only the 3rd Company so authorised ? The battalion had two armoured recce companies and if the battalion were to change to the KStN 114(gp) dated July 1944 then both could be so mounted. Do you have any evidence of a PAA changing to 1114 ?
You can see this in some of the authorized organization documents above, but here is a clear example in practice from 11. PD in December 1944 from T78 R617:
0108.jpg

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Re: Organization of a 1944 Panzeraufklärung-Abteilung

#14

Post by Alanmccoubrey » 29 Nov 2020, 14:30

Sadly a generalised question will get a generalised answer and also produce answers from people who look at a single unit on a specific date and think that gives a complete answer. December 1944 for hardly governs the whole year and a single division doesn't govern all the others during that year.
Alan

Gary Kennedy
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Re: Organization of a 1944 Panzeraufklärung-Abteilung

#15

Post by Gary Kennedy » 29 Nov 2020, 15:49

"Fire Brigades" by Kamen Nevenkin includes comments on the various changes in organisation of units of the Panzer Divisions for the 1943-45 period (mostly starting from late 1943).

I haven't got time to go through them all, but here's a quick, unscientific sample from the book.

11 PAA - In May 1944 the Bn was restructured as HQ & HQ Coy, Armd Car Coy 'c', Light Armd Recce Coy, Armd Recce Coy, Heavy Coy (armd), Supply Coy (mot).

3 PAA - From Sep 1944 organised as above, with following exceptions; Armd Car Coy 'b' (instead of 'c'), Armd Recce Coy equipped as per Light Armd Recce Coy.

24 PAA - organised as per 11 PAA outline given above, from Jan 1945 (bit late, obviously).

16 PAA - In Jun 1944 organised as per 11 PAA outline above, note that HQ Coy was equipped with both light and heavy armd cars (the KStN assumed two Platoons equipped with SdKfz 231, 232, 233 or 234 cars).

12 PAA - From Apr 1944 organised as per 16 PAA outline, including note re mix of light and heavy armd cars.

6 PAA - From Jul 1944 organised as per 3 PAA outline given above, with note that Armd Recce Coy was equipped with SdKfz 250 as per Light Armd Recce Coy.

8 PAA - From Aug 1944 organised as per 11 PAA outline organisation given above (no comments).

Gary

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