II./Pz.Gr.Rgt. 1 H.G. casuaulty report - 13.9.43

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Tom from Cornwall
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II./Pz.Gr.Rgt. 1 H.G. casuaulty report - 13.9.43

Post by Tom from Cornwall » 11 Feb 2024 20:57

Hi,

Could anyone help with a couple of the the column headings in this casualty report?
RL 32-144 - Casualty report table headings - 13.9.43.png
tot = dead; verwundet = wounded; vermisst = missing;
gef. - I had assumed gefallen (Killed in action) but the only entries in this column are "# Kranke".

Mun.Verbrauch = ammunition consumption
Waffenausfall = weapon failure = damaged weapons
Vorübergen = pass by [repairable?]
Grossgerät = large device / equipment

All help gratefully received.

Regards

Tom
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Urmel
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Re: II./Pz.Gr.Rgt. 1 H.G. casuaulty report - 13.9.43

Post by Urmel » 11 Feb 2024 23:13

gef. = POW (gefangen)
A.Z. = contact fuse (Aufschlagzünder)
Z.Z. = timed fuse (Zeitzünder)
Vorübergehend = temporary
M.Pi. = Maschinenpistole (submachine gun)
Kfz = motor vehicle (Kraftfahrzeug)
Fernspr.- Signals specifically telephone I think (Fernsprech)
The enemy had superiority in numbers, his tanks were more heavily armoured, they had larger calibre guns with nearly twice the effective range of ours, and their telescopes were superior. 5 RTR 19/11/41

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Re: II./Pz.Gr.Rgt. 1 H.G. casuaulty report - 13.9.43

Post by Tom from Cornwall » 12 Feb 2024 00:03

Urmel wrote:
11 Feb 2024 23:13
gef. = POW (gefangen)
A.Z. = contact fuse (Aufschlagzünder)
Z.Z. = timed fuse (Zeitzünder)
Vorübergehend = temporary
M.Pi. = Maschinenpistole (submachine gun)
Kfz = motor vehicle (Kraftfahrzeug)
Fernspr.- Signals specifically telephone I think (Fernsprech)
Thanks, I’m not sure about “gefangen” to be honest - it doesn’t seem to match how the table was used (e.g. Kranke). Wouldn’t the unit’s casualties who had been captured have been listed under missing?

I’ll see if there are other examples which might shed more light.

Regards

Tom

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Urmel
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Re: II./Pz.Gr.Rgt. 1 H.G. casuaulty report - 13.9.43

Post by Urmel » 12 Feb 2024 07:35

I can't come up with another term.

There were instances where it was clear that unit members were made POW as the instance could be observed, in which case they would not be missing I think.

It's the only term I am not sure about.
The enemy had superiority in numbers, his tanks were more heavily armoured, they had larger calibre guns with nearly twice the effective range of ours, and their telescopes were superior. 5 RTR 19/11/41

The CRUSADER Project - The Winter Battle 1941/42

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Re: II./Pz.Gr.Rgt. 1 H.G. casuaulty report - 13.9.43

Post by jpz4 » 12 Feb 2024 11:44

"TOT" in capitals is odd. To me it seems it was intended for total personnel losses, but the people filling in the numbers got as confused as we are :wink: In that case "gef." would indeed stand for 'gefallen'

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Re: II./Pz.Gr.Rgt. 1 H.G. casuaulty report - 13.9.43

Post by Tom from Cornwall » 12 Feb 2024 12:31

Thanks both,

I’ll post up the first page when I get a chance later as that might help as it shows the use of the gef. Column for sick casualties (at least that’s what I had assumed).

Regards

Tom

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Re: II./Pz.Gr.Rgt. 1 H.G. casuaulty report - 13.9.43

Post by Tom from Cornwall » 12 Feb 2024 22:25

Hi both,

This is the first page of the report. I'm assuming it is the report of casualties for 13 Sep rather than accumulated casualties since Kampfgruppe Fitz went into action against the British beachhead during the Salerno invasion.

I noted that this time the first column is labelled 'tot' rather than 'TOT'. Poor staff work by the battalion clerk obviously! :D

You can see what I meant by the use of the 'gef.' column to record sick - I suppose that must mean sufficiently sick to have been evacuated from the unit through medical channels.
RL 32-144 - II PGR HG Anlagen - Sep 43 - Folio 556 - Gef.St. den 13 Sep 43 p.1 Typescript.png
Strangely there does seem to be several reports all dated 13 Sep 43. I'll see if there are more for later during the battle.

Regards

Tom
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Re: II./Pz.Gr.Rgt. 1 H.G. casuaulty report - 13.9.43

Post by Tom from Cornwall » 13 Feb 2024 12:50

Urmel wrote:
11 Feb 2024 23:13

A.Z. = contact fuse (Aufschlagzünder)
Z.Z. = timed fuse (Zeitzünder)
Thanks for explaining those abbreviations as well. I’m assuming (wisely or too much of a stretch?) that both would have been for use against ground troops given the allocation of the 88 cm guns under command of a Kampfgruppe based around a Panzergrenadier battalion. I’ll see if I can rustle up any comments by British forces in the area about air-burst artillery (the Z.Z.) being used against them.

Very happy to be corrected on that assumption.

Regards

Tom
Last edited by Tom from Cornwall on 13 Feb 2024 15:01, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: II./Pz.Gr.Rgt. 1 H.G. casuaulty report - 13.9.43

Post by Urmel » 13 Feb 2024 14:35

Yes that is the case. Timed fuse was used to generate airbursts over entrenchments, for example. Could really ruin your day.

You could also do that with impact fuse by using ricochet fire, but more tricky.
The enemy had superiority in numbers, his tanks were more heavily armoured, they had larger calibre guns with nearly twice the effective range of ours, and their telescopes were superior. 5 RTR 19/11/41

The CRUSADER Project - The Winter Battle 1941/42

Tom from Cornwall
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Re: II./Pz.Gr.Rgt. 1 H.G. casuaulty report - 13.9.43

Post by Tom from Cornwall » 13 Feb 2024 21:20

Urmel wrote:
13 Feb 2024 14:35
Yes that is the case. Timed fuse was used to generate airbursts over entrenchments, for example. Could really ruin your day.

You could also do that with impact fuse by using ricochet fire, but more tricky.
Thanks, interesting.

And, I did some more delving and found this casualty report from 11./III (StuG)./Pz.Rgt. H.G. for July - October 1943 which suggests that the gef. should indeed have been used for gefangen.
RL 32-63 - III Stug - Pz Rgt HG - Foilo 224 - casualty report Sep 43.jpg
Regards

Tom
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Re: II./Pz.Gr.Rgt. 1 H.G. casuaulty report - 13.9.43

Post by Urmel » 13 Feb 2024 23:23

Lfd. Nr. = Laufende Nummer (consecutive count)
Datum = Date
verw. = verwundet (wounded, here: total wounded)
davon b. d. Tr. Verb. - bei der Truppe verblieben (of these remained with unit (so you subtract this from the total and you get the number of WIA evacuated to aid posts))
vermißt - MIA
bezw. Dienstgrade - beziehungsweise (or rank)
Unteroffiziere = NCOs
Mannschaften = OR
Oblt. = Oberleutnant (Lieutenant)
Lt. = Leutnant (Second Lieutenant)
The enemy had superiority in numbers, his tanks were more heavily armoured, they had larger calibre guns with nearly twice the effective range of ours, and their telescopes were superior. 5 RTR 19/11/41

The CRUSADER Project - The Winter Battle 1941/42

Tom from Cornwall
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Posts: 3169
Joined: 01 May 2006 19:52
Location: UK

Re: II./Pz.Gr.Rgt. 1 H.G. casuaulty report - 13.9.43

Post by Tom from Cornwall » 13 Feb 2024 23:47

Urmel wrote:
13 Feb 2024 23:23
Lfd. Nr. = Laufende Nummer (consecutive count)
Datum = Date
verw. = verwundet (wounded, here: total wounded)
davon b. d. Tr. Verb. - bei der Truppe verblieben (of these remained with unit (so you subtract this from the total and you get the number of WIA evacuated to aid posts))
vermißt - MIA
bezw. Dienstgrade - beziehungsweise (or rank)
Unteroffiziere = NCOs
Mannschaften = OR
Oblt. = Oberleutnant (Lieutenant)
Lt. = Leutnant (Second Lieutenant)

Thanks for all those explanations, much appreciated as always. It’s interesting how much detail is recorded in these documents. Certainly more than I had realised might have survived.

Regards

Tom

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