Hard Question: 1945 Panzer Div. Strength

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David C. Clarke
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Hard Question: 1945 Panzer Div. Strength

#1

Post by David C. Clarke » 04 Nov 2002, 04:40

Hey Guys, I'm not kidding, this isn't a question for the faint-hearted! My limited understanding is that a Panzer Division strength was recorded in several ways:

Iststarke: the actual number of troops in the unit, in both fighting and non-fighting elements.
Gefechtsstarke: combat strength
Verpflegungsstarke: which appears to be the same as Iststarke.
Sollstarke: the full number of men in the unit at the time of establishment.

So, my question is--What was the planned strength of a Panzer Division organized according to the 1945 TO&E in these categories???

Best Regards, David (And yes, this may be related to "Muncheberg"!) :D

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Qvist
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#2

Post by Qvist » 05 Nov 2002, 15:53

Hi David

I can't help you with the Sollstärke numbers I'm afraid, but just have a couple of comments to the strength definitions. Maybe Nafziger has something to offer? Unfortunately, I only have his infantry volume.

Sollstärke is not really the number of men in the unit at the time of establishment, but rather the number of men the unit is supposed to have according to it's TOE (which as you know was not neccessarily the same thing, especially in 1945). Iststärke is, as you note, the number of men belonging to a given unit, although not neccessarily the number of men actually with the unit in a fit state at any given time.

Iststärke ("actual strength") and Verpflegungsstärke ("ration strength") isn't actually quite the same thing. Verpflegungsstärke is basically everybody the unit is responsible for feeding, and could include f.e. POWs. However, at the divisional level, the difference between the two is very unlikely to be significant. As such, I do not think there would be a fixed Sollstärke for Verpflegungsstärke, as the latter is ad-hoc by nature (to the extent that it does not coincide with Iststärke).

On a point of detail, Iststärke isn't actually actual strength :), as it includes wounded who are still with the unit, men on leave and elements temporarily detached to other units. The definition that provides actual actual strength is Tagesstärke, which denotes the number of men fit for duty with a given unit at a given time, including any elements temporarily attached to it from other units. Unfortunately, this definition was apparently rarely used.

Finally, there were two different definitions of combat strength - Kampfstärke and Gefechtsstärke. One (I think it is Kampfstärke, but I never seem to be able to remember which with any great certainty) denotes the number of combat troops in combat units, the other all troops in combat units. The difference can be significant, as the Germans integrated substantial non-combat elements at the batallion and even at the company level.

cheers


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David C. Clarke
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Thank You

#3

Post by David C. Clarke » 05 Nov 2002, 16:25

Thank You Qvist! May I add one comment--ARGHHHH!! What a complicated system for determining unit strength!!!
I posted this question on Feldgrau as well and got some good information from Christoph Awender. My primary concern was the unit strength noted for "Muncheberg" in the "Muncheberg Thread". I don't understand why the figures are so low. Very Best Regards, David :D

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#4

Post by Qvist » 05 Nov 2002, 16:49

Thank You Qvist! May I add one comment--ARGHHHH!! What a complicated system for determining unit strength!!!
I can only sympathise and agree - that's Germans for you. :) More than one prominent historician have proven incapable of understanding the differences between them through the years. With Omer Bartov f.e., this is at the heart of some quite horrible misinterpretations.

When you think about it though, they all give different nuances of information, and it is an advantage from a research point of view to be able to draw on different ones according to whatever is most relevant in any given case.
I posted this question on Feldgrau as well and got some good information from Christoph Awender. My primary concern was the unit strength noted for "Muncheberg" in the "Muncheberg Thread". I don't understand why the figures are so low.
I take it you refer to Cheshire Yeomanry's combat strength figure of 3000?
Well, especially if this figure is Kampfstärke rather than Gefechtsstärke, it actually doesn't strike me as low, considering Müncheberg's TOE. After all, it had only a single Panzer batallion, a single artillery batallion and divisional minor combat units were companies rather than batallions. 3000 seems just about right I'd say. I'll have a look at Christoph's comments on Feldgrau.

cheers

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#5

Post by Qvist » 05 Nov 2002, 17:32

Just spinning on the thought about the usefulness of different strength definitions:

Let's say I'm writing a history of Pz.Lehr in Normandy. First I might want to say something about the strength of the division as it was moving to the battlefield. Iststärke is what I'd need - it hasn't any casualties to speak of yet, it has neither detached or attached troops yet and the relation between combat and non-combat elements is the normal one. I also want to determine it's state of readiness, and so must compare Iststärke to Sollstärke to see if it is at full strength. Then it arrives, starts fighting and I want to give a picture of it's strength on the 6th day of combat. I'd be looking for Tagesstärke, because at this time it has substantial elements attached, has detached some of it's own to other units and has a good few short term wounded. Unfortunately, I probably wouldn't find it. I also want to determine the extent of it's supply requirements. Then I'd want Verpflegungsstärke, because this provides the number of men it must provide with sustenance. Next I want to give a picture of the extent of it's combat power on the eve of Cobra. At this point, Iststärke does not give me that. We assume that now the division is fighting as a unit, and I am considering only this and not attached elements. The reason is that the division has taken big casualties, and almost all of these have been in combat elements while support elements are mostly still at full strength. Consequently, combat elements are making up a much smaller proportion of Iststärke than was the case on 6 June. Iststärke will probably indicate that the division retains more than half of it's strength, but combat elements will be much more reduced than that. So, what I really need is either Kampfstärke or Gefechtsstärke, which must then be compared to Sollstärke for the same elements. Finally, I want to determine the state of the division after Normandy. Firstly, I would need Iststärke. I would also need Kampfstärke, to get an impression of it's combat readiness in the short term. Preferably, I would also need Tagesstärke, as it could be the case that significant elements are detached or attached. Finally, I would need to know something about whether the division at this time has an accurate overview of it's subordinate units, as the numbers could be very inaccurate and/or incomplete if it hasn't. Fun this, what?

cheers

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David C. Clarke
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Uh-Huh

#6

Post by David C. Clarke » 05 Nov 2002, 18:00

Qvist, I've always known that you had a sense of humor, but this is the first time I've ever noticed just a hint of sadism in that sense of humor!

Yes, your point about the necessities of different yardsticks to measure unit strength is very well taken and your example is extremely helpful.
I don't quite know how to apply this in practical terms to the fragmentary information we have on "Muncheberg". Therein lies my confusion, as authors I respect use English terms of much less complexity ("Combat Strength") when giving statistics about the Division.

Well, all of this is only to say that I am receptive to suggestions!!!
Very Best Regards, David :roll:

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