Totenkopf, elite or criminals...?
Totenkopf, elite or criminals...?
So - how about the Totenkopf division, an elite formation or a band of criminals...?
Personally I feel Totenkopf performed somewhat unimpressive in comparison with (most) other German units and are stained by the nasty sides of Nazi Germany, the SS, etc to a much greater degree than (most) other German combat formations...
Not one of my 'favourites'...
Personally I feel Totenkopf performed somewhat unimpressive in comparison with (most) other German units and are stained by the nasty sides of Nazi Germany, the SS, etc to a much greater degree than (most) other German combat formations...
Not one of my 'favourites'...
- David C. Clarke
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- Birgitte Heuschkel
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So did Nuremberg and that wasn't right either. I'd say, though, that the T-division is highly tainted by its original function.ISU-152 wrote:The soviets considered all SS divisions to be war criminals.David C. Clarke wrote:Well, the Russians clearly considered the entire division war criminals.
Regards, D
Among others, the ones that Reich Commissar Hinrich Lohse referred to when he forwarded General Commissar Kube’s report on Operation “Cottbus” with the following remark:tonyh wrote:emmm....which ones were those?Especially those burning village churches with all inhabitants inside.
My translation from Christian Gerlach’s book Kalkulierte Morde, see the thread“What is Katyn compared to this? […] To lock men, women and children into barns and to set fire to these, does not appear to be a suitable method of combating bands, even if it is desired to exterminate the population.” [italics in original, translator's note]
Major Anti-partisan Operation in Belorussia
http://www.thirdreichforum.com/phpBB2/v ... d2e598ed71
What on earth does the “scorched earth” policy that the Soviets hurriedly pulled off in 1941/42 (a perfectly legal measure, according to German historian Max Domarus’ assessment of Hitler’s own “scorched earth” order for Germany of 19.03.1945) have to do with the devastation wrought and massacres committed by the German invaders and occupiers during “anti-partisan” operations or while retreating ?tonyh wrote:And considering the Soviets did the same activity with their "Scorched earth" policy, how accurate would that have been.
Some more quotes from the a.m. thread:
[…]Between 26 March and 6 April 1942, within 12 days, the reinforced 707th infantry division, the Slovakian infantry regiment and the German police battalion 315 destroyed a series of villages in a broken through forest area between Oktjabrski and Kopakevichi and murdered their inhabitants. In Chwoineja (Choino) 1,350 people were among other things locked into their houses and killed by hand grenades and burning, in Rudnja 800 persons were collected and shot in groups (the men first had to undress), in Oktjabrski 190 persons were burned alive inside the club house, the inhabitants of Kurin were in part shot, in part burned alive, similar as in Kovali, where the children were burned.[…]
[…]The course of the massacres in the doomed places shows an organized procedure by the German units and their helpers. In more than a few cases there were shootings at pits similar to the executions of Jews by SS, police and Wehrmacht, carried out with machine guns. In other cases the killing took place in barns, stables or larger buildings, sometimes by burning the people alive. These places of execution were meant to keep the victims from running apart and escaping. The third possibility was that every single family was arrested in its house and there killed by gunfire – especially from machine pistols – and hand grenades. After this the houses were burned down. Special detachments were in charge of the burning of the villages. Sometimes all inhabitants of every single house were registered days before, in a few cases gas vans were used as murder tools.
The burning down was not only meant to deprive partisans later passing through the village of shelter. The killing method employed, sudden killing with machine weapons and hand grenades inside building, led to some of the victims not being hit mortally or not being hit at all. The survivors were to be killed by fire; the buildings set on fire were often kept surrounded. The basic experience of those who actually managed to escape was the threat by the fire after the execution and the desperate attempt to get out of the buildings.[…]
[…]About the ensuing extermination campaign there are several sources and accounts. Two Wehrmacht propagandists reported as follows about the attempt “to turn this area into no man’s land”: “This was carried out by slaughtering the population of the villages and farms located in this area down to the last infant. All houses were burned down. Cattle and food stocks were collected and taken out of the area.” They also mentioned the panic that had spread even among the hardened Belorussian auxiliary policemen, who still spoke about it months thereafter:
“A particularly strong impression was left by accounts from members of the former Drushina I, who in February were witness to extermination actions against the Russian civilian population south of Sluzk. The description of German cruelties, like for instance cramming women and children in burning houses, goes around also among the civilian population.” […]
[…]At this place we shall refrain from describing and picturing the excesses of violence in detail. Some cases were already mentioned. Thus the Battalion Dirlewanger, on 21 July 1943 during Operation “Hermann”, chased the inhabitants of the village of Dory together with the pastor into the church and burned them alive there.[…]
[…]The shooting and burning in barns was, as has been explained, also based on a concept aimed at minimizing the effort required to murder and letting the least number of victims get away.[…]
I agree that Demyansk was no picknick. Nor some of the other battles fought by the Totenkopf Division, but does it merit the 'elite satus'...? There's no lack of German units fighting 'valiantly', but few with the same 'brutality' as the Totenkopf.Bad Tolz wrote:No,they certainly fought valiantly,read about Demyansk pocket,one example.
- Juha Hujanen
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Because I would be dubious about Soviet "accounts" of German attrocites considering their own "scortched earth" policy burned down many town and villages and left their inhabitants in the cold. And when advancing toward Germany they shot many a "fascist sympathiser". How many of these incidents were simply and conveniently blamed on the Germans a la Katyn, I wonder.What on earth does the “scorched earth” policy that the Soviets hurriedly pulled off in 1941/42 (a perfectly legal measure, according to German historian Max Domarus’ assessment of Hitler’s own “scorched earth” order for Germany of 19.03.1945) have to do with the devastation wrought and massacres committed by the German invaders and occupiers during “anti-partisan” operations or while retreating ?
Attrocity stories are never cut an dry.
I've no doubt that the Germans commited many an attrocity in the East, but likewise I have no doubt that many a Soviet incident was blamed on the Germans too.
Tony