Totenkopf, elite or criminals...?

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Scott Smith
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#61

Post by Scott Smith » 05 Dec 2002, 01:52

Wolf wrote:
Scott Smith wrote:...and Lawrence of Arabia is an icon.
Not to me he isn't.
Nor to me. But like Eicke, worthy of study.
:)

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Re: The Cowboy Camps...

#62

Post by Wolf » 05 Dec 2002, 01:55

Scott Smith wrote:Oberstgruppenführer Hausser went so far as to say that the Waffen-SS were ONLY soldiers after all. There is much truth to this, although the SS were heavily involved in police and security duties (along with the Wehrmacht and Feldgendarmerie).
In the case of the Totenkopf division I'd say there's no question that the Waffen SS men were NOT 'soldaten wie andere auch'...


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#63

Post by Wolf » 05 Dec 2002, 01:57

Scott Smith wrote:Nor to me. But like Eicke, worthy of study. :)
Well, agreed... though I've never been all that interested in WWI... :)

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Re: The Cowboy Camps...

#64

Post by Scott Smith » 05 Dec 2002, 02:00

Wolf wrote:
Scott Smith wrote:Oberstgruppenführer Hausser went so far as to say that the Waffen-SS were ONLY soldiers after all. There is much truth to this, although the SS were heavily involved in police and security duties (along with the Wehrmacht and Feldgendarmerie).
In the case of the Totenkopf division I'd say there's no question that the Waffen SS men were NOT 'soldaten wie andere auch'...
I don't agree. The principle of "Soldiers of Destruction" (not the book by the name) is what every general wants. In the U.S. Army they openly tell you that your job is to "kill people and break things." I'm sorry but that is what soldiers do. I do not believe in "excessive force," however, whatever that means. But a few atrocities in the passions of battle do not make war-criminals of an entire division, particularly when seen in the context of a very brutal war.
:)

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#65

Post by Wolf » 05 Dec 2002, 02:18

Scott Smith wrote:But a few atrocities in the passions of battle do not make war-criminals of an entire division, particularly when seen in the context of a very brutal war.
A few atrocities in the heat of battle doesn't really give a correct picture of the Totenkopf division IMO. :)

The character of Totenkopf, in its background, training, combat and elsewhere clearly shows a formation of men that were if anything not soldiers like everybody else.

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Re: SS TK Troops

#66

Post by Scott Smith » 05 Dec 2002, 02:21

Caldric wrote:
Scott Smith wrote:
Caldric wrote:
JLEES wrote:Yes, I agree, they were overall both elite troops and criminals at the same time.
They were destroyed so many times I wonder sometimes if it was elite or just fanaticism such as the Japanese showed in combat. What they lacked in military acumen they made up for in fanatical zeal.
They held the line when the were told to if at all possible. Sometimes that is what it takes to fight wars. But they also displayed a high level of skill, leadership, and initiative, and it can't simply be laid to ideological fanaticism alone. It is hard for most Americans to accept that Germans, who lost two world wars, were very exceptional soldiers, and usually better at fighting for their country than Americans or British "fighting for Democracy." I know Ambrose tried hard (and failed) to challenge that idea.
:)
Perhaps, as I said elite maybe, but at any rate I do not find standing your ground to last man reason for elitist rank. American Marines did this and more at Chosin. There is no need to fight to the last man, it is much better to defeat the overwhelming enemy with just tons of skill and excellent leadership. This will get you through at times. So I am not sure if the "better then" holds much water.
I agree that fighting to the last man is not all it takes to make a unit elite, although some commanders might think so. But the 3rd SS was skilled. Did they really waste talent in military terms?

Besides, the relationship between Hitler and his Wehrmacht generals was so strained that when they gave ground "strategically" they were sacked, because he didn't know if they were running away or not, but when SS commanders did it this was overlooked. He knew he could count on them to fight and not just drill. This is another generality, of course, but none other than Keegan has made the point.
Perhaps the difference is that in Western Democracy such nations young people in UK and US are not subjected to almost complete brainwashing by propaganda system so well oiled that it could talk normal people into the most barbaric acts. Not to say Democracy does not have its propaganda, I would be naive to make such a statement, although it is nothing comparable to Nazi Propaganda system.
I think the brainwahsing is almost as complete, if not more so, in spite of (or because of) its not necessarily being centrally-directed. Whenever we turn on the TV we are trained to BUY, for example. Goebbels learned his craft by studying British atrocity-propaganda from WWI and American Madison Avenue advertising and other commercial propaganda. We can't even put a concept like "Crimes of Capitalism" on the table because our "bourgeois minds" barely have a language to even express the idea. A little off-topic, sorry.
:)
Last edited by Scott Smith on 05 Dec 2002, 02:29, edited 1 time in total.

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Trevor Dupuy!

#67

Post by JLEES » 05 Dec 2002, 02:26

Scott,
I've read Dupuy too! He's an outstanding historian and I have about four of his books in my library. But, you've got to understand Dupuy is talking about the German Army as a whole when comparing it with the American, British and Soviet soldiers. Yes, due to the German organization, military doctrine and other factors, they were possibly the best military system in the world up until the end of 1944, but he is not doing specific divisional comparisons in his book. Dupuy's analysis is on the basic soldier and the military organization he fought in and one must remember the German Wehrmacht had several pre-war years of preparation to get ready for war that the US Army did not have prior to Pearl Harbor. Meanwhile, many of the other factors that make a country powerful like economic organization, mass production, research and development and availability of resources to wage war, the USA excelled at over all other countries on the planet at that point in history. Nevertheless, after the Wehrmacht’s failure in the Battle of the Bulge, which was America's third full year at war, the average US soldier, according to Dupuy, could outperform the average German soldier in combat. It took the American military system three years to catch-up and overtake the German Wehrmacht, according to Dupuy.
James

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#68

Post by Caldric » 05 Dec 2002, 02:30

Sounds like some interesting books, are they still in production do you know?

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Dupuy

#69

Post by JLEES » 05 Dec 2002, 02:37

Col. T.N. Dupuy (US Army Ret.)wrote these four books in my library:
"A Genius for War: The German Army and General Staff 1807-1945."
"Understanding War: History and Theory of Combat"
"Understanding Defeat: How to Recover from Loss in Battle"
"The Evolution of Waepons and Warfare"
James

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Dupuy Other Book

#70

Post by JLEES » 05 Dec 2002, 03:02

The other book of Dupuy's I have is called, "Numbers, Predictions & War." It took me some time to find all five. I really don't know if any of his books are still in print. He was a big military thinker in the 70s through early 1990s, but his stuff should be in the US library system for a “book loan.” During the build up phase for the Gulf War, Dupuy was interviewed by someone in Chicago and was asked his opinion on how the conflict would go. After stating he thought if would take just a few days to destroy Saddam's military in the ground war and drive them out of Kuwait, the interviewer basically laughed Dupuy off stage. In the end Dupuy was proven right when just about everyone else said the US could beat Saddam or at best it would take months to push them out. It’s no fashionable to say the Iraqis didn’t have a chance, but back then not too many people were saying it.
James

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Re: Trevor Dupuy!

#71

Post by Scott Smith » 05 Dec 2002, 03:04

JLEES wrote: But, you've got to understand Dupuy is talking about the German Army as a whole
I agree and I apologize for the misunderstanding.
but he is not doing specific divisional comparisons in his book.
He does some of this but his database is extremly painstaking and the results limited. For example, the Hermann Göring Panzer Division gets exceptional marks in the battles of his database.
Dupuy's analysis is on the basic soldier and the military organization he fought in and one must remember the German Wehrmacht had several pre-war years of preparation to get ready for war that the US Army did not have prior to Pearl Harbor.
I agree, and "Soldiers of Democracy vs. Soldiers of Dictatorship" comparisons are inappropriate, which was my point, not that Germans make better soldiers than Americans.
Meanwhile, many of the other factors that make a country powerful like economic organization, mass production, research and development and availability of resources to wage war, the USA excelled at over all other countries on the planet at that point in history.
I agree, and that is one reason that we have not had to resort to war as much, not necessarily because we are more "peace loving or democratic," IMHO.
Nevertheless, after the Wehrmacht’s failure in the Battle of the Bulge, which was America's third full year at war, the average US soldier, according to Dupuy, could outperform the average German soldier in combat. It took the American military system three years to catch-up and overtake the German Wehrmacht, according to Dupuy.
True again. And the same improvement could be said of the Russians in 1944, though here the Germans were holding back enormous "hordes" with only handfuls of desperate men, so there was still a qualitative German advantage. In WWI, if the prisoner hauls are added to the statistics, it took eight Russians to fight one German, but WWII shows that these forces were only badly led, or as Lenin put it, Tsarist soldiers voted to end the war "with their feet." Still, in late-WWI, German forces that the Americans described as "tired and depleted" were about equal statistically in terms of soldiering skill.

I don't see any reason why Americans, British, or Russians cannot be excellent soldiers. But I do feel that the Germans fought just as hard for their country or their ideology as others fighting for theirs.
:)

Trevor N. Dupuy's A Genius for War: The German Army and General Staff, 1807-1945 is available from Amazon to support this very site, ONLY by clicking my link.

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#72

Post by Caldric » 05 Dec 2002, 03:16

Nice thanks he sounds like a very good read.

I have to admit I was one of those that thought Gulf War would be a blood bath... well it might be depending on your side, anyway after was all over I almost thought it was not fair. :D

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Re: Dupuy

#73

Post by Scott Smith » 05 Dec 2002, 03:25

JLEES wrote:Col. T.N. Dupuy (US Army Ret.)wrote these four books in my library:
"A Genius for War: The German Army and General Staff 1807-1945."
"Understanding War: History and Theory of Combat"
"Understanding Defeat: How to Recover from Loss in Battle"
"The Evolution of Waepons and Warfare"
James and Caldric, I put together a complete bibliography of Colonel T. N. Dupuy for the old forum about two years ago. His father was also a soldier and historian. Here is the link to a reposting:

http://www.thirdreichforum.com/phpBB2/v ... 107#100107

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#74

Post by Scott Smith » 05 Dec 2002, 03:27

Caldric wrote:Nice thanks he sounds like a very good read.

I have to admit I was one of those that thought Gulf War would be a blood bath... well it might be depending on your side, anyway after was all over I almost thought it was not fair. :D
Me too.
:oops:

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Dupuy

#75

Post by JLEES » 05 Dec 2002, 04:15

Scott,
Do you know if Dupuy is still alive? He doesn't seem to be writing books about Military Science/history anymore. I remember reading "A Genius for War: The German Army and General Staff 1807-1945" back in the late 1970s and thought it was an outstanding book. It truly is one of those military studies that stands out among all the books one reads. His other two books "Understanding War" and "Understanding Defeat" are also good and worth the time to read.
James

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