Freikorps and Estonia 1919

[Reinuvader]

Here's another pic of that sort of weapon...

And this train name is "Uncle Tom".

[Anonymus]

Hallo Everyone,




-- On November 11, 1918, the commander-in-chief of the VIII. army granted permission for the formation of the Baltische Landeswehr. It was to consist of 20,000 territorials which were to be divided into two groups, Latvian and Estonian. Major Sheibert, a German, was to command the Latvian group and Colonel von Weiss, later commander of the Baltenregiment, was to command the Estonian group. I am wondering if some personal ties developed among two or more officers in the initial command structure which could account for the "representative" of the Estonians that Spekke claims was on Goltz's staff during the spring of 1919.

IBest Regards,

Durand

I would like to know the source of this information

siim

[Prit]

What an amazing thread. Huge thanks to those who created it in bygone years.

Can anyone give me approximate Baltic German/Freikorps casualties for the Battle of Cēsis?

Prit

[WilhelmII]

Maybe it is interested to know that first battle in Estonian War of Independence - Battle of Narva (1918) - was Estonian-Germany alliance battle against Bolsheviks. And some Estonians even get Iron Crosses. Like this man, senior officer Arnold Jaago. Note he have German Iron Cross and Estonian Freedom Cross as well. Unbelievable combination but it is true!

BTW One Estonian who got his Iron Cross directly from subsequently Freikorp army leader Rüdiger von der Goltz was Finnish Civil War "warlord"
Hans Kalmn. Later he got Estonian Freedom Cross as well.

[michael mills]

Note he have German Iron Cross and Estonian Freedom Cross as well. Unbelievable combination but it is true!

Why is it an unbelievable combination? He got both medals from forces that were allied against the Bolsheviks. The Germans were fighting the Bolsheviks, and the Estonians were fighting the Bolsheviks. What is so strange about that?

[WilhelmII]

(Sorry my english is bad but i try to write something. Hope You understand something!)


To understand this you maybe must know more about estonian history. First we have had so-called "700. years slavery" under german rule (baltic-germans, first they were Teutonic knights). It was one main motto when was Estonian national awakening https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estonian_ ... _awakening in 19. century.

Then was https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revolutio ... 05#Estonia A total of 160 (baltic-german) manors were looted, resulting in ca. 400 workers and peasants being killed by the army (whit help of baltic-germans).

Then started World War I. Russia (Estonia was then part of Russia, but baltic-german nobility preserved all their main privileges, they were main landowners). But when WWI starts then Russia starts anti-german propaganda. They used wisely Estonain hundreds years old struggle against local baltic-germans.

And 1917-1918 in Estonia was very back-breaking German occupation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_oc ... orld_War_I. Some people even died of hunger. Before we had here demoralized russian soldiers gangs and then Germans who took again mainly food, animals, horses - all what they want.

On the same day when german army have occupied capital Tallinn (Reval), Estonia declared itself independent state. Germans dont accepted it of course. But one big demage what they made was that they have desarmed 1917 formed & well armed Estonian Division (was part of Russian army, formed Estonian soldiers who had WWI battle experiensces, and was most diciplined Russian army unit during Revolutions, not acepted communist ideology). And that was main reason why then, end of 1918 when Germans started to left from Estonia, we had no men with arms, ammo, uniforms and stuff. Moreover - german army at this time was too affected by communist ideology. Lot of them saw russian communists as brothers. Dicipline went down. And when they left from Estonia, they don't give us guns for fight against Russian communists. They even destroy or drowned guns, but not giving them to estonians who beg them give guns. And then suddenly in Narva, when they left Estonia, they fight whit us. Ofcourse They only defend their backoff and not fighting for Estonia. And then they still giving Iron Crosses to estonians. This is what is surprising!

Most baltic-germans fought against us in Landeswehr. https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baltische_Landeswehr Whit us fought baltic-german Baltenregiment (was part of Estonian Army). https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baltenregiment

Last but not least: We celebrate Estonian Victory Day on 24 june - its day of our victory against germans - Baltic Landesweh and Freikorp Iron Division - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of ... %281919%29 It's not logical because this was only one battle against germans but whole war was against Soviet Russian communists (includes against latvian red riflemen, estonian reds and chinese reds too!). But again - germans was then our historical enemy - it was our revanche for 700 years slavery!
Epilogue: 1939 Hitler brings baltic-germans back to germany. Very bloody Soviet occupation during 1940-1941 and 1944-1991 wiped out germans as our main historical enemy.

NB! Estonians mostly used word Landeswehr for all German units (including Iron Division) during "Landeswehr war".

Some images:


Estonian armored vehicle "Vanapagan" (Old Devil) in Latvia Rodenpois after peace treaty with Landeswehr.



Captured Landeswehr/Iron Division pilots whose plane was shut down near Narva on 9. juli 1919.

Landeswehr/Iron Division soldiers



Landeswehr soldiers Samson, Berg, Schroeder and Guido Maydell


Captured Landeswehr/Iron Division tiny soldier. 27.06.1919. Ropaš, Latvia.

[michael mills]

Thanks for the information, Wilhelm. It seems the Estonians drove out the Germans, but now have a much larger number of Russians in their land!

[WilhelmII]

This alternative is not better.

https://books.google.ee/books?id=lhbWCg ... on&f=false

Baltic German Barons agreed to give up one-third of their lands for German colonization:
https://books.google.ee/books?id=y37zY9 ... 18&f=false

http://dspace.ut.ee/bitstream/handle/10 ... sequence=1
The plan envisaged was organized colonization of the Baltic areas by German soldier-farmers who, with arms ready, would stand against the "Slavic wave" and bring German Kultur to the local population. Although during seven hundred years they had failed to Teutonize the Latvians and Estonians, the Baltic barons were resolved to correct their historical error. The Baltic nations were to disappear from the face of the earth, as the Borussians had vanished in eastern Prussia. The president of the Kurland Landrat (Regional Council), Rudolf von Horner-Ihlen, clearly formulated these plans in the conclusion of his program pamphlet published in Berlin in 1917: Baltische Zukunftsgedanke (Ideas on the Baltic Future). He expressed the hope that the Latvians and Estonians will finally themselves understand that "the great turn in their fortunes signifies for them nothing other than the transition to a higher culture, whose base they already bear in themselves, and which represents the only possible and natural advance also of their higher development in a spiritual, moral, and eco­ nomic sense. They will become Germans of a special type, but this need not diminish their worth for the German nationality as a whole."
"The Lettish and Estonian tribes will but fulfill their his­ toric destiny when German influence shall blossom among them."
The very existence of the Baltic nations was at stake. If Baltic Germans faced the clear alternatives of either incorpora­ tion in the mighty German Empire or departure forever from the Baltic where they had been for seven hundred years, the Latvians, Estonians, and Lithuanians saw with equal clarity that annexation of the Baltic area to Germany meant the end of their national existence.
...
The Kaiser at once benevolently gave his consent on April 21, following which von Hindenburg issued an order on the establishment in Berlin of the Kurland Coloni­ zation Company, with a capital of fifty million marks, to engage in the recruitment of colonists for the Baltic area. Another von Hindenburg order issued on June 17, 1918, obligated all Geman landlords in the Baltic to sell not less than a third of their land to the colonization company. The Lebensraum (living space) was to be further expanded by the first contingent of colonists, who would themselves oust native peasants.
...
With pride von der Goltz writes that the Baltic Germans were the first military men whom Hitler was able to recruit. "Thus the Baltic fighters are not only those of the last front and the last to remain with the enemy. They are almost the very first soldier fighters for the new Germany, the Third Reich."

Actually von der Goltz fight for establish new great Russia who then is allye of German monarchists. If he would have win i think Estonia have had more russians. But Hitler was this who made Molotov-Rippendropp pact and gives Baltic states and Finland to the Stalin. This was why he calls baltic- germans back to Germany.
We must remember that when Landeswehr (Goltz) have attacked Estonian it was time when Estonia fighting against Red Army. They liberated North-latvia but there Landeswehr "stabbed them to back", instead start to fight together against Red Army.
I don't want to say, that estonians hate germans - not at all. They are done lot of good thing too. They have same culture. Although estonians suffered 700 years under german nobility, they still speak their own language. At same time lot ow same small nations under Russia have disappear.

[Jan-Hendrik]

Not to forget how the germans helped to develop the culture and the economy of the baltic states....evil germans, as usual.

Jan-Hendrik

[michael mills]

Wilhelm II, the book you have quoted from "The Baltic Riddle", was published in 1943, ie it is a piece of wartime anti-German propaganda, and it even supports the idea of the Baltic States being incorporated into the Soviet Union.

It is true that in 1918 the German Government proposed to settle German agricultural colonists in both Estonia and Latvia, after the whole of those two provinces had come under German occupation, and the Baltic German landowners agreed to hand over one-third of their lands for that purpose.

But it is a falsehood to suggest, as the passage you quoted does, that Germany intended to make the Baltic nations "disappear". The fact is that settlement of German colonists on one-third of the land in Latvia and Estonia would not have displaced the ethnic Estonian and Latvian populations, since Estonia and Latvia were then, and still are, extremely sparsely populated countries, with plenty of room for both the native population and German colonists.

That is clearly shown by the fact that after the Second World War, huge numbers of Russians and other Soviet nationalities could settle in Estonia and Latvia without completely displacing the native populations.

Today, the population density of Estonia is 31 persons per km2, and that of Latvia almost the same at 32 persons per km2. Thus, both countries are still extremely underpopulated, compared with Germany (232 persons per km2) and Britain (267 persons per km2). In fact, they have the same population density as the Kyrgyz Republic (30 persons per km2), a country which is very mountainous and had very little inhabitable land, unlike both Estonia and Latvia which have large areas of fertile farmland suitable for colonisation.

Even Jordan, a country that consists almost entirely of desert, with very little inhabitable land, has a population density of 74 persons per km2, double that of Estonia.

Thus, the fact is that in 1918 Estonia could easily have absorbed large numbers of German agricultural colonists without any displacement of the native Estonian population whatever.

The source for the above figures on population density is:
http://data.worldbank.org/indicator/EN.POP.DNST

In 1922, when the population of Estonia was 1.107 million, Russians comprised 8.2% of that population, and ethnic Estonians 87.6%. By 1989, the population had increased to 1.566 million, of which Russians comprised a massive 30.3%, with the proportion of ethnic Estonians having fallen precipitously to 61.5%.

Today, the proportion of Russians, Ukrainians and Belarusians has fallen to 27.8%, mainly through substantial emigration, their total number having declined from 550,816 in 1989 to 365,035 today. The proportion of ethnic Estonians has risen to 69.1% today, despite a fall in absolute numbers from 963,281 in 1989 to 907,937 today.

If all the Russians, Ukrainians and Belarusians disappeared from Estonia, the total population would fall to 948,000, of which ethnic Estonians would comprise 907,000, or 95.6%. But in that case the country would be even more underpopulated than it is today, with all the detrimental effects that would have on the economy.

Between 1934 and 1959, the number of ethnic Estonians living in Estonia fell precipitously from 992,520 to 892,653. That fall of almost 100,000 persons was mainly due to the punitive deportation carried out by the Soviet Government. There is simply no way that a hypothetical settlement of large numbers of Germans in Estonia after 1918 could have had anywhere near that sort of detrimental effect on the ethnic Estonian people.

It is true that the Estonian people suffered greatly during the 20th Century, but that suffering was inflicted almost entirely by the Russian Empire and the Soviet Union and not by Germany, either during the First World War or during the Second. So, Wilhelm II, I suggest that your complaint about German plans for colonisation of Estonia are misplaced; the source of Estonia's misfortune lies elsewhere.

[WilhelmII]

I must write again in english what is not easy to me. Sorry about that!

First. Not so tragically. Every nation have done good and bad things and have good and bad persons. Even germans

I know that one book what i have cited is war time anti-german and pro-soviet propaganda. But facts are still facts.
Russia is too very underpopulated. I think China will take over part of Siberia someday, because it will be life-or-dead question for them.

But Estonians have always been a small nation. Living in the same area for more than 5,000 years would put the ancestors of Estonians among the oldest permanent inhabitants in Europe. Lot of pure nature.

In the end of Soviet occupation russians want open new phosphorite mines in Estonia and bring in 500 000 new soviet workers. Then Estonians would have been minority in their own land. Actions against this was part of Estonian freedomfighting.

But if we talking about germany, then as we see today, then they have much free land to let in masses of immigrants. Today in urbanized society farming and cheap work is not popular and needed. We have more and more robots/machines who working. So today population growth is not so needed for economy growth as it was 100 year ago. One-family farms can't compete with big agricultural industry. But Germany had very big colonies in Africa too. Why not go to there and live like "Afrikaners"?

German colonists don't start to talk estonian or take over estonian culture. No. German plan was germanization of Estonians. Make their schools to german schools. During WWI occupation they have banned speak estonian in schools. If you want to have education or make some career - you must speak german and be like german. How this is not threat to existence of Estonians? How we must call it? What will be the result? Same what we see today in Königsberg/Kaliningrad. Big nation win and small will lose. Why? Because they have big army too.

Every Estonian can talk long stories how their families have suffered under Russians/Soviets. 1941 all nation was thankful to German army for liberating them from Red terror. USA, France, England... didn't do anything to stop it. But this topic is about German Freikorps in Estonia (including their plans in this region).

[michael mills]

You should bear in mind that the Estonian nation as it exists today was essentially created by medieval German settlers. Before the arrival of the Germans, the Finno-Ugric tribes inhabiting the land that is today Estonia had no national consciousness; they did not even have a name for themselves, simply calling themselves "maarahvas", meaning "country people", and their language "maakeel", meaning "country language".

The very name "Estonia" was coined by the German settlers; it is the Latin form of the German "Estland", meaning simply "eastern land". That was the name given to the territory by both the Livonian Order and the Danes who ruled it.

Danish influence was also strong, as is shown by the name of the Estonian capital, Tallinn, which means "city of Danes".

Germans played a major role in developing the Estonian language and culture. The earliest surviving text in Estonian is a German-Estonian Protestant catechism published in Wittenberg in 1535. The first grammar of the Estonian language was written in German and was printed in 1637. The first translation of the New Testament, printed in 1683, was written in the southern Tartu dialect. In 1715, a new translation was published in the northern Tallinn dialect, as was the entire translation of the bible printed in 1739; that is the main reason why the northern dialect became the standard form of Estonian.

The first glossary of Estonian was included in a grammar of Estonian written in German, printed in 1632. A later Estonian-German dictionary was produced by Salomo Heinrich Vestring.

In 1803, a lectureship of the Estonian language was founded at the University of Dorpat (Tartu), an educational institution founded by the German settlers in Estonia, which used German as its language.

The first modern grammar of the standard (ie northern) Estonian language, was written in German by Eduard Ahrens and published in 1843. Ahrens also proposed that the German model of spelling used for writing Estonian should be replaced with a Finnish-style orthography, since Finnish was the language most closely related to Estonian.

In 1861, Friedrich Reinhold Kreutzwald published his definitive rendition of the national Estonian epic "Kalevipoeg" (Son of Kalev), modelled on the Finnish Kalevala.

So Germans have by no means been hostile to the Estonian language, and have done a lot to preserve and develop it. It was the Russian Government, first that of the Tsars and then that of the Communists, that tried to suppress the Estonian language and compel the Estonians to speak Russian rather than either Estonian or German.

[Karelia]

Not many countries - Germany included - had a national consciousness based on common ethnicity or language prior 1800's. Ordinary people identified themselves as being subjects of empires and kingdoms - the rulers of which often spoke different language - with ever changing borders and sizes. To have a national identity based on common ethnicity and language is a relatively modern phenomenon.


Also countries being undepopulated is relative and a matter of opinion. Personally I - being a citizen of Finland, population density 18,1 persons per km2 - wouldn't classify my country as being underpopulated, but the countries like Germany, the UK or France as being overpopulated.

[WilhelmII]

Germans don't make estonia nation. Estonians have call himself "maarahvas" (nation of this land). Why you don't like this name? Is this not enough "real" name? Or how they must call themselves?
Archeological evidences show to us that in territory what is today's Estonia have different archaeological finds. Scandinavian sagas have call Estonia Estland and estonians as separated nation. We can say that Germans are modern nation created in 19. century. Depends what we call an nation.


"Danish influence was also strong, as is shown by the name of the Estonian capital, Tallinn, which means "city of Danes"."
It is only one theory, not fact. In Tallinn there are finds from stoneage too. It is old market place.

"Germans played a major role in developing the Estonian language and culture. The earliest surviving text in Estonian is a German-Estonian Protestant catechism published in Wittenberg in 1535."
Ofcourse germans here and there. But why? Only because they dont let estonians go to schools. Estonians cant move outside their villages and they must work for germans. It is not because germans have better brains.

Friedrich Reinhold Kreutzwald was Estonoan. Many Estonians had German surnames. Why? Because germans worked in Churches and other higher positions. 1936 Estonian goverment forced Estonian take Estonians names. But still some Estonains have German or Swedish surnames. It is not something special.

Estonian Army official website shows pictures from one reenactment battle during Estonian Independence War. There iron Division fight with Estonian Army against Bolsheviks. It's strange how history is changing. http://pildid.mil.ee/Vabaduss-ja-teemal ... 16/MG_2708 Video http://tv.delfi.ee/eesti/saaremaa-sojav ... d=70854505

[WilhelmII]

Landeswehr machine gunners 1919 june.


Landeswehr officer shoulder board taken during battle Võnnu 1919


Landeswehr private


Landeswehr trenches




from: muis.ee