11th SS Panzergrenadier Division panzer strength 1944

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Marc Rikmenspoel
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Re: 11th SS Panzergrenadier Division panzer strength 1944

#16

Post by Marc Rikmenspoel » 10 May 2008, 20:02

Kelvin, I think the late war case for the Heer armored units (and the LW HG) were different from that for the SS. With the SS, Himmler was busy establishing as many units as possible, even when there wasn't sufficient weapons and manpower. For some latewar divisions, the SS had to scrape up whatever could be found, for example captured stocks of rifles, because the Wehrmacht wasn't prepared to supply the kar98 (or more modern rifles) to scratch formations of Soviet citizens, even though the kar98 and better rifles would be made available to a division such as LAH, which was helpful to the main war effort.

For the Heer Panzer and Panzergrenadier Divisionen, they were all equally elite in the eyes of the Heer, even if it was recognized that some performed better than others (say, the 13. PD compared to the 25. PD). These divisions were vital to the war effort, and they were refurbished as best circumstances allowed. Sometimes a Reserve Panzer Division could be merged with the battered remnants of a Panzer Division (as happened in the West in the spring of 1944 on several occasions), in late 1944, a Panzer Brigade could be used to rebuild an armored division. Sometimes there was no such unit available, and a Panzer Division received what replacements were available in terms of men and weapons.

But also, by late 1944, the Heer's focus was on creating powerful Panzerkorps based around 2 divisions, with supporting elements. In many cases, this meant two divisions that were weaker than a full strength Panzer Division was supposed to be at this time, but which in the new corps structure had a combined striking power greater than single full strength Panzer Division. This can be seen in the creation of the Panzerkorps Grossdeutschland (with Panzergrenadiere Divisionen GD and Brandenburg), the Panzerkorps Hermann Göring (with Panzer Division 1 HG and Panzergrenadier Division 2 HG), the Panzerkorps FHH (with Panzer Division FHH1 aka PGD FHH and Panzer Division FHH 2 aka 13. PD), and the XXIV. Panzerkorps (with 16. and 17. Panzer Divisionen).

If a division was not part of these new model Panzerkorps, in some situations it might not be resupplied with men and weapons on as high a priority. The armored units in Kurland got only the bare minimum to keep them functional, rather than full rebuilds, for example. The point to all this is that, as I indicated above, it was circumstances more than anything else that dictated how the rebuilds and reequipping of late war armored units went.

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Piet Duits
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Re: 11th SS Panzergrenadier Division panzer strength 1944

#17

Post by Piet Duits » 11 May 2008, 12:27

I fully agree with Jan-Hendrik. What a nonsense. Lower elite, higher elite... why are you so focussed on elite?
If you want elite units, go and try to find reports on the average Infantry Division, which had to endure most of the battles fought on every front.
Or even better yet, individual Kompanies, reduced to Gruppen-strength, still withholding attack after attack. That, in my humble opinion, is what real eliteness is.

If you think being well equipped means elite, than the Luftwaffen-Feld-Divisionen in late 1943, going into battle with the newest and finest weapons, fully dressed for battle while their comrades from the Heer were having hard times to survive the winter cold, were real elite units.
Too bad that those Lw.Felddiv. weren't worth the money, as they fled the battlefield, leaving the new equipment behind. Now that's eliteness.

What's eliteness? There were several Panzer-Divisions in the west being build and rebuild which had a lot more than was usually authorized in terms of armored vehicles, APC's etc. (Panzer-Lehr, 2. Panz.Div.), and after they retreated from Normandy, they were practically destsroyed. As in loosing most of their armored vehicles, APC's etc.

So, the make an end to this rant of mine: if you want true elite formations, dig into Inf.Div.'s if you can.
The authorized strength of an Infanterie-DIvision neuer Art as of 29.10.1943 was 326 Offz., 72 Beamte, 2082 Uffz., 10983 Mannsch., thereof 2005 Hiwi. Total strength 13463, with NO armored vehicles.
The authorized strength of this same Infanterie-Division n.A. as of 15.2.1944 (with the Gren.Rgt., DIv.Füs.Btl. and the Art.Rgt. having revised KStN) was 364 Offz., 89 Beamte, 2442 Uffz., 13168 Mannsch., thereof 2504 Hiwi.
In early 1944 most if not all the regular Infanterie-Divisionen were to be build using this organization., except for the static infantry divisions, the security divisions and some odd other infantry division.

Piet


Marc Rikmenspoel
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Re: 11th SS Panzergrenadier Division panzer strength 1944

#18

Post by Marc Rikmenspoel » 11 May 2008, 19:52

I think Piet makes good points. In relation to that, Mark Yerger has been claiming for several years that the SS-Polizei Division is deserving of better consideration. I have supported that view, and in my books I have suggested that the goal in creating that unit was to field a division comparable to the prewar/early war Infanterie Divisionen of the Heer. I believe that goal was achieved, and that the SS-Polizei Division was the equal of the other infantry divisions fighting in the Leningrad-Volkhov area between late 1941 and early 1943. The idea found in many shallowly researched books, that the SS-Polizei Division was "2nd rate" is ridiculous, it was only that the LAH and (Das) Reich units in 1939-41 were made up of concentrations of the finest physical specimens among German manhood. Every other German military unit (especially the original SS-Totenkopf Division, which had shorter and older men) was "2nd rate" in that comparison. But of course, the available supply of young, tall men at the peak of health was very quickly used up, and LAH and Das Reich became more and more like any other German unit in terms of manpower as the war went on.

In terms of equipment and rate of reconstitution, I think my point is still valid that in the Waffen-SS, Nordland and the 16. -18. divisions (RFSS, GvB and HW, all identified as Panzergrenadier) were never issued weapons on the lavish level that the seven divisions identified as Panzer had received, even when those seven were first labelled Panzergrenadier. And Nordland and 16. -18. weren't rebuilt or issued replacement weapons and equipment with the same priority as the Panzer Divisionen. Yet with that said, they were still at a much higher priority than the mass of infantry and anti-partisan units in the Waffen-SS, and they were considered, or intended, to be elite (it gets into a whole different issue that GvB, for example, was never fully trained at any part of its career). They were a "lesser elite" in the terms I have described, in considering their role within the Waffen-SS, but I agree that this isn't a label that should be in general usage when assessing the WW2 German military. And finally, it needs to be recognized that by 1944, even the seven Waffen-SS Panzer Divisionen had to make due with whatever men and weapons were available, so that their overall quality lessened, and wasn't noticeably far ahead of that of SS-Polizei-Panzergrenadier Division and the other four Panzergrenadier Divisionen I have been describing (except that Panzer Divisionen were usually at 18-21,000 men, while the Panzergrenadier ones were usually at 11-14,000 men).

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Re: 11th SS Panzergrenadier Division panzer strength 1944

#19

Post by Kelvin » 11 May 2008, 20:03

HI Marc, I also think the performance of 4th SS Polizei, 11th Nordland and 17th GvB were good. But rarely hear the performance of both 16th and 18th SS were good.

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