7.5cm PaK 41 in 337. Volksgrenadier-Division

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Mattias Rönnblom
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7.5cm PaK 41 in 337. Volksgrenadier-Division

Post by Mattias Rönnblom » 29 Nov 2008 00:38

According to Letzte Schlacht an der Ostfront (Pantenius, p42) the 337. Volksgrenadier-Division had 7.5cm PaK 41 guns (when it is formed, in late 1944). They were located in a "leichte Abteilung" of the artillery regiment.

For those of you that don't know, the 7.5cm PaK 41 is a fairly unusual (150 pieces made) and very powerful AT gun of the squeeze bore type. The AP ammunition of this gun relied heavily on tungsten, of which there was a severe shortage in 1944-45.

I'm surprised to find 7.5cm PaK 41s being used so late in the war. (I'm a little surprised to find AT guns in an artillery regiment too, but I guess that could happen.)

So my question is: is this an error of some sort, or did the division really have PaK 41s? Guesses or other sources, anyone?

One theory could be that they were by used as artillery (firing HE), but they must have been terrible as such. The barrels only lasted 500 rounds (if I recall correctly), and it's only a puny 55 mm projectile leaving the barrel.

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Re: 7.5cm PaK 41 in 337. Volksgrenadier-Division

Post by Alanmccoubrey » 29 Nov 2008 10:52

I can't comment on the 7,5cm sPak 41 being in a VG Artillery Unit but I can say that the standard gun intended for the "light" artillery battalions was the "artillery" version of the Pak 40, although they did use many sorts of 75mm guns as well. Alan
Alan

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Re: 7.5cm PaK 41 in 337. Volksgrenadier-Division

Post by Bob_Mackenzie » 04 Dec 2008 14:36

I believe that late in the war some steel AP projectiles were made for the PaK-41. penetration was not too good IIRC

It still seems odd that there would be a PaK-41 in an artillery unit

I'd tend to agree with Alan - Its a type for Pak-40

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Re: 7.5cm PaK 41 in 337. Volksgrenadier-Division

Post by Mattias Rönnblom » 06 Dec 2008 15:45

OK. Thanks to both of you for your answers.

Btw, you don't happen to remember the source of the information on late-war PaK 41 steel projectiles?

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Re: 7.5cm PaK 41 in 337. Volksgrenadier-Division

Post by Alanmccoubrey » 06 Dec 2008 18:22

Mattias, It may only hav ebeen a "puny" 55mm at the projectile but it could penetrate 102mm of 30 degree armour at 2000m ! No HE involved so like Bob I'm surprised to see it in an artillery unit. I haven't been able to find any references to a steel projectile, only a soft iron practice round. Alan
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Re: 7.5cm PaK 41 in 337. Volksgrenadier-Division

Post by Mattias Rönnblom » 06 Dec 2008 20:04

Yes, I know. It's a Wunderwaffe. :) From what I remember, a HE round (for soft targets) was designed, but it's unclear if it ever was mass-produced.

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Re: 7.5cm PaK 41 in 337. Volksgrenadier-Division

Post by Alanmccoubrey » 06 Dec 2008 20:31

With a barrel life of only 500 rounds what would make them waste it on HE ? Alan
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Re: 7.5cm PaK 41 in 337. Volksgrenadier-Division

Post by Mattias Rönnblom » 07 Dec 2008 00:43

Dire circumstances... to protected the crew and gun from being killed/captured, for example.

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Re: 7.5cm PaK 41 in 337. Volksgrenadier-Division

Post by Der Kohlenklau » 08 Dec 2008 10:51

Bob_Mackenzie wrote:I believe that late in the war some steel AP projectiles were made for the PaK-41. penetration was not too good IIRC
Think you´re talking here about the Panzergranate 41 (W)...Due to lack of tungsten, that grenade was introduced in late war. It penetrated 67mm of armor at a range of 1.000 meters.
Compared to the Panzergranate 41 (HK) with it´s penetration of 136mm of armor at a range of 1.000 meters, that was a really drawback

Source: Lexikon-Der-Wehrmacht

Btw: Nice scenario, Mattias. Hope to play it one day :wink:

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Re: 7.5cm PaK 41 in 337. Volksgrenadier-Division

Post by Alanmccoubrey » 08 Dec 2008 21:50

Ian V Hogg in his "German Artillery of WW2" says that the 7,5cm Pzgr 41W (Weicheisen - Soft Iron) was the practice round. Alan
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Re: 7.5cm PaK 41 in 337. Volksgrenadier-Division

Post by Bob_Mackenzie » 09 Dec 2008 09:51

Mattias Rönnblom wrote:OK. Thanks to both of you for your answers.

Btw, you don't happen to remember the source of the information on late-war PaK 41 steel projectiles?
Leo Neihorster made a post nearly 10 years ago on the AFV News forum
[ Follow Ups ] [ Post Followup ] [ AFVBoard Discussion Group ]
---------------------------------------------------------

Posted by Dr. Leo Niehorster on November 22, 1997 at 14:33:35:

In Reply to: PaK-41 posted by Bob Mackenzie on November 21, 1997 at
18:25:45:

7,5cm Pak 41
Only 150 were manufactured and delivered between April and May 1942 to the
Army by Krupp.
In March 1945 there were still eleven 7,5cm Pak 41 left, of which only
three were in combat units.

The amount of Tungsten (Wolfram) contained in the first ammunition issued
was 9 kilos, which was, as you mentioned, very difficult to get and was
therefore discontinued. This was the
___Pzgr. 41 HK -- (Panzergranatpatrone 41 Hartkern) (=hard core)
___27,100 produced in 1942; 7,900 produced in 1943.

Instead of Tungsten, the Germans then developed a round with a soft iron
core, the
___Pzgr. 41(W) -- (Panzergranatpatrone 41 Weicheisen) (=soft iron)
___11,000 produced in 1942, 41,300 produced in 1943.

It was replaced late 1943 by a round with a hardened steel core, the
___Pzgr. 41 StK -- (Panzergranatpatrone 41 Stahlkern) (=steel core)

In March 1945 there were still 30,600 rounds for the 7,5cm Pak 41 left in
the inventory, (including the high explosive version not discussed here).
*************************************
For comparisons's sake:
HL-Gr.Patr for 7,5cm Pak 97/38: // muzzle velocity: 450 m/s; penetration at
500 meters: 75mm
Pzgr. 39 for the 7,5cm Pak 40 HK // muzzle velocity: 750 m/s; penetration
at 500 meters: 91mm
Pzgr. 40 for the 7,5cm Pak 40 HK // muzzle velocity: 930 m/s; penetration
at 500 meters: 108mm

Pzgr. 41(W) for the 7,5cm Pak 41 // muzzle velocity: 1260 m/s; penetration
at 1000 meters: 67mm
Pzgr. 41 StK for the 7,5cm Pak 41 // muzzle velocity: 1170 m/s; penetration
at 1000 meters: 67mm
Pzgr. 39 for the 7,5cm Pak 40 HK // muzzle velocity: 750 m/s; penetration
at 1000 meters: 80mm
Pzgr. 39 for the 7,62cm Pak 36(r) HK // muzzle velocity: 740 m/s;
penetration at 1000 meters: 82mm
Pzgr. 40 for the 7,5cm Pak 40 HK // muzzle velocity: 930 m/s; penetration
at 1000 meters: 87mm
Pzgr. 40 for the 7,62cm Pak 36(r) HK // muzzle velocity: 930 m/s;
penetration at 1000 meters: 112mm (*)
Pzgr. 41 HK for the 7,5cm Pak 41// muzzle velocity: 1260 m/s; penetration
at 1000 meters: 136mm (*)
(*) both types of rounds had Tungsten cores.
Interestingly the 67m@1k is not for the SOFT iron core but for the HARDENED steek core (StK) according to Leo. Leo's research is usually spot on

Cheers

Bob

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Re: 7.5cm PaK 41 in 337. Volksgrenadier-Division

Post by Bob_Mackenzie » 09 Dec 2008 09:54

And while we are at it the only info I have on the users of the PaK-41. :( I wish there was a delivery list for the units that got the guns!

(all from other forums)

Cheers

Bob
Ab Mai 1942 bei der Pz-Jg.Abt. 25 der 25 Inf.Div.(mot.)
auch eingesetzt bei der Pz.Jg.Abt. 36 der 36. Inf.Div. und der Pz.Jg.Abt. 7 der 7. Inf.Div

Pz-Jg.Abt. 30 der 30. Inf.Div. soll auch welche gehabt haben. Zumindest ist in Wydawnictwo Militaria 258 ein Bild so untertitelt.

_____________

I quote chronicle of the 2.(Wiener)Panzer-Division, page 130 from bunch ':

Quotation:
On 10.8. (note: 1942) in the right section Wetrowo and Arshaniki under strong enemy pressure were vacated. The hawser became nachBol. Tokarewo shifts (south Karmanowo). In these days for the first time so far a cannon secretly held with particularly high striking power, the 7.5 cm Pak 41(konisch), with Jelnja was used.

On 11.8. renewed large-scale attacks of the opponent particularly began in the left division section. Two heavy attacks with 21 enemy tanks were directed toward Jelnja. The place was given up in the process of the fights. 12 enemy tanks were shot by the department (2.Kompanie 5 T 34, 3.Kompanie 5 T 34 and 2 KW of 1.) Were wounded of the 2.Kompanie: NCO Fischer Kautz, private first class Burkerd, hasp and Hasenhaendl; 4 men was missed. The Paks of the 2.Kompanie, under it the Pak 41, could make because of the fast break-down of the opponent of no more position changes and stood partially destroyed west for Jelnja. A Gegenstoss in the late afternoon under guidance of the present section sergeant with 3 SF and people of the 2.Kompanie under first lieutenant Ti, in addition soldiers of K 2 and pioneers, could be spoken up to the local edge. Wounded were saved, but the Paks to take out did not succeed. First lieutenant Tischner fell.

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Re: 7.5cm PaK 41 in 337. Volksgrenadier-Division

Post by seppw » 13 Jan 2019 10:45

Hello,
thanks for your contributions. This thread is more than 10 years old, hence I was wondering whether a Schusstafel might have popped up somewhere in the meantime. I'm interested in deviation and penetration values for 0° and 60°(from vertical), but I wasn't able to find anything on hieske's site.
Thank you for your time.

Best regards sepp

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