Nordland Panzergrenadier division

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Henken
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Re: Nordland Panzergrenadier division

Post by Henken » 28 Dec 2008 23:10

The reason why some may call the Nordland-division elite is because of the high number of 30 Knight's Crosses in the division which made them one of the highest ranked divisions in the Waffen-SS. I have also read that in Mai 1945, Schwere SS Panzer Abteilung 503 and 11. SS Panzer Abteilung were merged toghether and then formed the 11. SS Panzer Regiment. I don't know how great this was though, since the 503. SS Pz. Abt. at this point only had 8 King Tigers left :P :P :P

Henken
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Re: Nordland Panzergrenadier division

Post by Henken » 28 Dec 2008 23:26

This is a Panther belonging to Hermann von Salza in Pomerania (can anybody identify the model) :wink:
Image

More Panthers from the Hermann von Salza Abteilung (still I can't identify the model) :P
Image

I've found these pictures on the net, but :o it took me a long time.

Rob - wssob2
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Re: Nordland Panzergrenadier division

Post by Rob - wssob2 » 29 Dec 2008 01:45

Hi, 11th SS Nordland Panzergrenadier division had two PG regiment : 23rd Norge and 24th Danmark Panzergrenadier regiments. This division seemed being consisted of many Norwegian and Danish volunteer plus some from Northern Europe. But recently,some sources said that 90% of its soldiers was Volksdeutsche from Romania. Anyone have further data on that ?
Here's an OB for the unit:
Stab der Division
SS-Panzergrenadier Regiment 23 (SS-Grenadier Regiment 2) Norge
[a.k.a. norwegisches Nr. 1 a.k.a. Nordland?]

SS-Panzergrenadier Regiment 24 (SS-Grenadier Regiment 1) Danmark
[a.k.a. dänisches Nr. 1]

SS-Panzer Abt. 11 Herman von Salza
SS-Panzer Artillerie Regiment 11
SS-Stürmgeschutz Abteilung 11
SS-Panzerjäger Abteilung 11
SS-Nachrichtung Abteilung 11
SS-Pionier Battalion 11
SS-Nachrichtung Abt. 11
SS-Nachschubtruppen 11
SS-Aufklärungs-Abteilung 11
(3rd company's mortar platoon known as "Swedenzug" for the large number of Swedes in the unit. The Swedes were assigned to the mortar platoon because mortar were supposedly a specialty of the Swedish Army)

SS-Instandsetzungs Abteilung 11
SS-Flak-Abt. 11
SS-Wirtschafts Abt. 11
SS-Kriegsberichter-Zug 11
SS-Feldgendarmerie-Trupp 11
SS-Feldersatz-Battalion 11
SS-Bewährungs-Kompanie 11
SS-Sanitäts-Abt. 11
SS-Werfer-Battalion 521
- as part of III SS-Panzer Corps

SS-Jäger-Regiment 11


As for the composition, yes Danes and Norwegians did serve in the division, along with Reichdeutsche. Post 1943 many SS divisions contained large percentages and even majorities of volksdeutsche conscripts. My apologies but I don't have a nationality/ethnic breakdown for the unit.
I have also read that in Mai 1945, Schwere SS Panzer Abteilung 503 and 11. SS Panzer Abteilung were merged toghether and then formed the 11. SS Panzer Regiment
Calling the half-dozen tanks left a "regiment" is a bit of a stretch.

Henken
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Re: Nordland Panzergrenadier division

Post by Henken » 29 Dec 2008 17:46

SS-Panzergrenadier Regiment 23 (SS-Grenadier Regiment 2) Norge
[a.k.a. norwegisches Nr. 1 a.k.a. Nordland?]
The Nordland Regiment which was a scandinavian unit with Norwegian origin and in fact the majority of the recruits were Norwegien. It became a part of the 5th SS Panzer Division Wiking in 1941. In 1943 the Regiment was withdrawn from Wiking because it was supposed to be the foundation of a new Division, 11th SS Voulenteer Panzer Grenadier Division Nordland. Hitler had ordered this because he wanted a new division where also scandinavians could be officers. Because of the Nordland Division is the direct successor of the Nordland Regiment, the Division is often seen as the Norwegian SS-Division 8O

I believe it is right that 90 % of the recruts were Volkdeutsche because overall there where only a couple of thousand Norwegians and Danes in the Nordland Division, and when the Division recieved new recruits these were mostly Volkdeutsche.

It is without doubt that the veterans from Wiking strengthened the Division. I have read that the 23rd PG Regiment Norge was supossed to be the leading regiment and was usually placed in the front lines, though from what I've heard, the soviets often just rushed past their trenches (Narwa Front).

It is fun being a historical researcher on war :P :P :P
Last edited by Henken on 29 Dec 2008 18:32, edited 3 times in total.

Henken
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Re: Nordland Panzergrenadier division

Post by Henken » 29 Dec 2008 17:49

Calling the half-dozen tanks left a "regiment" is a bit of a stretch.
I agree, but so they did :P :P :P

thomas.ham
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Re: Nordland Panzergrenadier division

Post by thomas.ham » 29 Dec 2008 19:17

Henken wrote:This is a Panther belonging to Hermann von Salza in Pomerania (can anybody identify the model) :wink:
Image

More Panthers from the Hermann von Salza Abteilung (still I can't identify the model) :P
Image

I've found these pictures on the net, but :o it took me a long time.
Ausf A I think, the drivers view port giving it away.
Theres loads of threads on here about Nordland Panthers.

Tom

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Re: Nordland Panzergrenadier division

Post by Jan-Hendrik » 29 Dec 2008 21:37

The pics on train are showing Panthers of the PR of 'Wiking' in 1944 :wink:

Jan-Hendrik

Henken
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Re: Nordland Panzergrenadier division

Post by Henken » 30 Dec 2008 00:02

Ausf A I think, the drivers view port giving it away.
Theres loads of threads on here about Nordland Panthers.
I've read a little about Panthers lately and learned some of the hallmarks of the vehicle. You are absolutely correct on picture 2, but on picture 1 I am still a bit unconvinced as the driver view port isn't that clear in this picture. It could also be an early Ausf G. Thanks anyway :wink:
The pics on train are showing Panthers of the PR of 'Wiking' in 1944
I believe you are right. Oddly, the website where I found this picture, claimed they were belonging to Nordland :wink:

By the way, I've read that the Nordland Division had 10 Jagdpanzer 38 Hetzers in 1945. Can anybody confirm this in detail?

Martin Block
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Re: Nordland Panzergrenadier division

Post by Martin Block » 30 Dec 2008 00:28

A short history of SS-Pz.Abt. 11 based on data taken from original German records can be found on page 1 of this thread: http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 6#p1271156
The only Panthers the unit ever received were some 13 early Ausf. D so the late Ausf. A or Ausf. G on the other photo also does not show a Panther of this unit. German records do confirm that SS-Pz.Abt. 11 did definitely never received any Jagdpz. 38 nor did SS-Pz.Jg.Abt. 11.

Martin Block

Kelvin
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Re: Nordland Panzergrenadier division

Post by Kelvin » 30 Dec 2008 06:38

Nordland possessed no assault gun or tank during late Nov 1944 and March 1945 when her Pz Abteilung were refitting in Germany and only retured in march 1945 and took part in Berlin battle.

Martin Block
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Re: Nordland Panzergrenadier division

Post by Martin Block » 30 Dec 2008 09:13

Kelvin,

that statement is incorrect. German records show, that when SS-Pz.Abt. 11 was sent back to Germany for refit during the fall of 1944 one company with the remaining Pz. V and StuG III stayed with the division. See also here: http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 8#p1255068 and an earlier post here http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 4#p1205804

Martin Block

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Qvist
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Re: Nordland Panzergrenadier division

Post by Qvist » 30 Dec 2008 12:08

The reason why some may call the Nordland-division elite is because of the high number of 30 Knight's Crosses in the division which made them one of the highest ranked divisions in the Waffen-SS.
Yes, but this is in my opinion an extremely poor basis for judging the worth of a division. A KC is awarded for personal bravery and accomplishment, not for collective efficiency. Also, it seems quite possible that the consistent efforts that went into building up the elite image of the Waffen-SS, not just in Germany but also in the occupied countries, affected the readiness to hand out KCs. Can't say I have seen anyone pose that question and answer it convincingly. At best, KCs can hardly be more than one relatively minor indice if you want to assess the fighting worth of a division, and one that requires accounting for a number of such things. I sincerely hope that serious researchers in the field are not so tunnell-visioned and trophy-oriented that they think they can rank divisions by counting KCs.

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Henken
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Re: Nordland Panzergrenadier division

Post by Henken » 30 Dec 2008 15:17

Yes, but this is in my opinion an extremely poor basis for judging the worth of a division. A KC is awarded for personal bravery and accomplishment, not for collective efficiency. Also, it seems quite possible that the consistent efforts that went into building up the elite image of the Waffen-SS, not just in Germany but also in the occupied countries, affected the readiness to hand out KCs. Can't say I have seen anyone pose that question and answer it convincingly. At best, KCs can hardly be more than one relatively minor indice if you want to assess the fighting worth of a division, and one that requires accounting for a number of such things. I sincerely hope that serious researchers in the field are not so tunnell-visioned and trophy-oriented that they think they can rank divisions by counting KCs.
You must understand the substance of presenting historical knowledge. If you read the sentence thoroughly you will notice that I don't claim that this statement is right. I said "why some may call " because I've heard this opinion elsewhere. By presenting this statement I hoped to get responses and other opinions :wink:

Thx to Martin Block and Kelvin for disproving false information. It seems like Nordland never operated Hetzers :wink:

Henken
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Re: Nordland Panzergrenadier division

Post by Henken » 30 Dec 2008 15:41

Here is the statement about the Hetzer which I found :wink:
Many members from both tank detachments that participated in the bitter fighting in and around Berlin were unable to accept the reality of creating a tank regiment from two nominal tank detachments. On 13 April 1945, Herzig reported 12 operational "Königstiger" (King Tiger) tanks, located in Frauenhagen near Schwedt. In mid-April, the SS-Panzer-Abteilung 11 had 45-50 Sturmgeschütze (StuG), individual Panzer IV and V ("Panther"), and 10 Jagdpanzer "Hetzer" (7,5mm KwK 40). In addition, the regiment also had armored vehicles form the headquarters and staff companies, such as the Erkundungszug "Hermann von Salza."
For those who use the Tragedy of the Faithful as a source, it is worth mentioning that the book doesn't mention 10 Panthers (most likely Ausf G) being shipped to the division in February 1945.

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Re: Nordland Panzergrenadier division

Post by Qvist » 30 Dec 2008 15:57

You must understand the substance of presenting historical knowledge. If you read the sentence thoroughly you will notice that I don't claim that this statement is right. I said "why some may call " because I've heard this opinion elsewhere. By presenting this statement I hoped to get responses and other opinions
It did not escape my razor-sharp attention that you throughout failed to associate yourself with the position you described. And if you read my post thoroughly you will notice that I engage the statement you hoped to get responses to, not you.

cheers

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