Will Fey and the 14 Shermans he claims for 7/8/44

[Michael Kenny]

I state that Fey did not remember adequately, and that in his books and public stances he mixed, matched and fudged, so his actual British tank Ko's remain in limbo. He fought for a number of days, wanted to lump certain combats together to create more novelistic drama,

So you agree the whole '15 Shermans knocked out in one brief action' is made up?

I am something of a newcomer to this site, and am reading years old posts with pleasure, and normally refrain from commenting on flawed ones.

I normally only comment on (or 'correct') flawed posts.

I look forward for your attempts to find Barkmanns 10+ knocked out Shermans and a stalled US Advance in July 1944!

[annewolstenholme]

Thanks for your reply Michael Kenny. Yes WW2 forum have been helpful in my quest to make sense of my fathers ww2 account . I have been searching for Sgt Roberts with a 17pounder anti tank gun and crew and when I saw Fey's account I thought this could be it. My father never saw his Sgt Roberts again or the rest of his crew they were all separated. He wondered for the rest of his life whether they were alive or dead, unlike in Fey's account. I didn't realise he was talking about a Sherman crew Michael, I thought there were a lot of joint ventures and my father and the
rest of the crew had been sent to support the 82nd Airbourne. I know that he was in an area heavily over run with two 2 Panzer divisions. I would love to find the US Tank Officer that found him on the roadside probably from the 101st Airbourne who took him back to his regimental unit. I shall keep searching for more information, I found a group photo on the net of dad with C company 2nd Battalion Royal Ulster Rifles he looked so young on it. Thank you Anne

[David Thompson]

Michael Kenny -- You wrote (presumably to poster Miles Krogfus):

I look forward for your attempts to find Barkmanns 10+ knocked out Shermans and a stalled US Advance in July 1944!

Please avoid injecting personal remarks about other posters into our historical discussions.

[Michael Kenny]

but Fey debunkers also lack the data to simply dismiss his statements or German official documents.

All 'Fey 'debunkers' need is the information about British movements and losses. That alone is enough to dismiss any German claim of 15 Sherman losses in one action on Aug 7 1944.

And why could no one for years in their comments about August 7 realize the source (Trautmann) and what the text Fey used does, as I now have stated ?

I presume for the same reasons those who from 1990 to 2003 (the publication date of the English version of Fey to my first challenge of the details) believed this tale of a super SS tanker demolishing the best part of a Squadron of Shermans on his own never felt the need to check British 'texts' about the day.

[Miles Krogfus]

I collect and tell what documents, books and vets state, and did not "move the date" for 102 SS Tiger combats. Anyone researching long past events has found misdated material. Vets do not have perfect memories, and documents may get the wrong date typed on them. In the years since the original post on this site about Fey's claims, none of its repliers until me mentioned the evolution from Trautmann's diary detailing Fey's August combats through its publication changes from text to text. I am the one who has noticed text shifting, fudging etc., not any debunker. So to indicate that I am working to propound his "legend" is wrong headed. Michael first states that British reports "were not written to verify some Tiger crew's imagination," then "can anyone provide a single verifiable Eastern Front type double digit multiple kill claim . . .? " Thus it seems that no such verifying report should be expected to await a researcher. He contends that Fey's claim "is completely bogus." No data supports this remark. The British themselves do not offer any lost to Tigers tabulation.

[Michael Kenny]

I am the one who has noticed text shifting, fudging etc., not any debunker.

The 1960 German text is here:

http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 6#p1303606

and even then it is ' an entire tank company; not to mention the MTW, SPW, Karetten and other vehicles, which was impossible to count' in 30 mins . The date differs Aug 8 not 7. Location given as NW of Vire when Chenedolle is east of Vire but west of Vassy.

So who changed the date and the location in the English version and was it done so as to better fit the location of a specific unit so they could be the claimed victims?
I suspect the story was altered to make it fit for where 23rd Hussars were thought to be but faulty reading of their War Diary (meaning they did not read the War Diary) just made the claim even more impossible.

[Sheldrake]

This whole thread demonstrates the cultural difference between the British Army, which shunned the idea of "Tank aces," and regarded land warfare as a team activity; and the Germans who seemed at times to treat battle as some kind of medieval joust.

[Shermaninterest]

According to data compiled by some other members of the Forum the 11th Armoured Division had 23 casualties including light casualties on the 7th August. Is this correct? Is it known where those were lost, if yes this would be the easiest way to dispel Feys myth. I think it doesn't sound unreasonable to assume that Fey mixed up dates and or units but if the losses of 11th AD happened elsewhere there is no physical way for Fey to have destroyed those tanks.

Cheers

[PF]

In awnswear to query in 3-1-2016 concerning Sgt Robers and US Airborne Divisons

Here are the CWGC of soldiers named Roberts of the Royal Ulster Rifles KIA
http://www.cwgc.org/find-war-dead.aspx?cpage=1

Here is only Robers KIA 7-8-1944 listed
http://www.cwgc.org/find-war-dead/casua ... %20MALCOLM

82nd Division Museum https://www.82ndairbornedivisionmuseum.com/
101st Division Museum http://www.101airbornemuseumbastogne.com/

[David Thompson]

A post from Michael Kenney containing personal remarks about another forum member was removed pursuant to the warning posted at http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 2#p2001292.

[Michael Kenny]

A post from Michael Kenney containing personal remarks about another forum member was removed pursuant to the warning posted at http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 2#p2001292.

The book at issue is Will Fey's 'Armor Battles of the Waffen SS 1943-45.

Page iii of the introduction has this:

Hpool Portrait288.jpg

Miles wrote in an open forum well over a decade ago (in a reply to a post by me) that he provided the specific information to WIll Fey about 23rd Hussars.

I mentioned it back in 2005

http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 12#p712212

He confirmed it in this thread here last year:

http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 7&t=215580

In the 1980's, Fey sent me a dated list of his victory claims, then I mailed him a preliminary list of the Allied units he may have faced in the areas of these claims. He failed to follow up by researching actual unit war reports, and published my info in garbled form in a book without informing me.

[Michael Kenny]

According to data compiled by some other members of the Forum the 11th Armoured Division had 23 casualties including light casualties on the 7th August. Is this correct?

It is 23rd Hussars who were 1 of the 4 Armoured Regiments in 11th AD.
The War Diary lists 17 KIA, 52 WIA & 6 MIA (75)for August 1-7.
The 23rd Hussars history book gives 21 KIA & 53 WIA (74)for the same period.
The War Diary notes that 20 Shermans were struck off in the days after they left the front line.

[Michael Kenny]

Previously on AHF:

http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 7&t=215487

He (Fey)was credited with 11 kills on August 7, 1944 not 15 (versus 2 British units).

I believe when you say 'credited' you are reffering to the report on the night of Aug 7th where it simply states 20 tanks claimed with 11 of them being claimed by one Tiger. No mention of Fey at all.

Which 2 British units please. I will search out the details once they are identified.

The comments I made about bad blood between Fey and Egger (who both claim/get the credit these Shermans) was deleted by the mod but this thread says much the same thing so is worth a read.

http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... er#p875947

[Michael Kenny]

As it is now being claimed the Sherman kills were achieved over a number of days where does it leave this:

2 official German mentions of Fey's Chenedolle combat time exist: (1) II SS Pz.Korps the night of Aug.7: SS Pz.Abt.102 shot 20 tanks, including 11 by 1 Tiger.

I have seen that reference used before to validate Fey's claim and it leaves no doubt over the date. Anyone have the exact text text to clear it up?

[pintere]

Can anyone provide a single verifiable Eastern Front type double digit multiple kill claim for a German tank ace in NWE 1944-45?

This is an interesting question, and I'll have to look into it more. For now though there is one that comes to mind that I have checked. That would be the two Jagdpanzer IVs of the 12th SS during Totalize. I've a link to the full recommendation, but in a nutshell it states that he destroyed 13 Shermans in a single day (9th August). And I have checked this kill claim. Probably the best reference I could give would be from Stephen Napier's book on tank battles in Normandy, specifically the chapter on Totalize. This and other sources will attest to the brutal losses suffered by the Canadians and Poles during the latter stages of the operation. I believe the unit that Eckstein faced was the Polish tank unit in Totalize, and they had a lot of knocked out tanks during this day and 8 August.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fritz_Eckstein