Will Fey and the 14 Shermans he claims for 7/8/44

[Miles Krogfus]

What is footnote 77 and what does it state? Also using a book to correct another secondary source: book, article or . . . can be a bit . . . Some books quote many primary documents and thus actually become excellent "neo-primary" sources while others offer innocents well written melodrama.

[Michael Kenny]

Here is the period Military map used by the Allied units. If you know the sequence of movements and Unit start locations you can work out what the problem is. It appears Szamveber has 'done a Fey' and taken the German account as gospel, found out which unit should have been there and re-arranged the text of the award citation by inserting extra detail he thought would confirm the kill claims-bad decision!

St Pierre Sur Dives 7F-4 (2)rrtk.jpg

1947 air view

IGNF_PVA_1-0__19uytitch.jpg

[Michael Kenny]

What is footnote 77 and what does it state? Also using a book to correct another when both are secondary sources is a bit . . . The Combat units that were involved should not be judged as regards either their skill or reporting accuracy by what secondary sources claim, correct and dispute.

77 10 Pulk Strzelcow Konnych w Kampanii 1944-45 Nuremberg 1947 p 9-11

That is '10th Mounted Rifle Regiment On Campaign 1944-45'. This is one of the hundreds of Regimental History books published by Commonwealth Units in Germany just after the war ended. Written by the men who were there and whilst they had all the paperwork to hand.

Very telling that you did not ask for any source for the kill claim in Szamveber. It appears the default position is 'if there is a conflict then only question the non-German version.

[Miles Krogfus]

Michael's recent deleted post mentioning me that violated this site's conduct code also tried to give me DARK motives about: shifting dates, shifting combat results etc. . . . I then explained in detail the actual evolution of Fey's Drama by mentioning book sources for this evolution. Michael, you originally left a dangling footnote #77, so my response to your reply obviously just related to that. I wished to see if the note led to any unit's combat report. It led to a secondary source. Tiger #134's adventures in another secondary source also were written by "men who were there." Regarding the quoted Polish History work, how many tanks were combat fit in the 10 PSK on the quoted day of combat, and how many were Stuarts? The book is neither written mainly about a tank unit nor composed by a tank vet. I have received combat after action reports/diaries from Panzer unit vets. They did not also have such material from their other Divisional units. Histories about/mainly about one element of a whole Division, American, British and German, that I have read do not have detailed loss data in men and machines from all its units. Does the book Michael quotes (1) list the complete killed, wounded, missing names of all its men from all the Division's units? (2) does it have complete tank losses for the whole life of the Division? (3) Thus what kind of daily/weekly/monthly tank destroyed and damaged loss figures does it have?

[pintere]

There is a book 'Black Devils March' which is a history of 1st Polish AD but concentrates on 10th Mounted Rifles as the author's father was in that unit. Pages 22-23 deal with the attack mentioned in Szamveber's book (page 171)

Here are the 2 accounts. They can not be reconciled. Clearly one version bears no relation to the real events.

Szamveber's book is certainly informative, but no more a final arbiter than any other secondary source. Page 259 of his book has the original citation for his RK. I don't know where Szamveber drew his conclusions, for the report claims no Cromwells destroyed. Furthermore, it discusses a breakthrough through the German lines at Soignolles, ending up at Hill 111. This is where Eckstein did his deadly work. It is obvious that it was not this Polish recce unit, as it was operating much further north. It is most likely that this armoured group was Worthington force, and that Eckstein was one of the panzers that participated in its destruction. So then it was probably not all Polish tanks that his 13 kills for the day come from, but Canadian ones as well.

[Michael Kenny]

I have made a big mistake in my earlier post.

http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 3#p2001723

The date of the action I posted was 8th Aug not 9th. The incident in Szamveber concerns Worthington Force and the attempt by 10 PSK to make contact with them. 10 PSK say their losses were 'significant'. I will reply more fully when I sort it all out.

So then it was probably not all Polish tanks that his 13 kills for the day come from, but Canadian ones as well.

No. It was 10 PSK. See map on page 309 of No Holding Back by Reid.

Hpool Portrait293.jpg

[Michael Kenny]

The book 'Black Devils March' uses the 1947 history of 10 PSK (10th Mounted Rifles, the Cromwell Recce Regiment)) as its source for a day-by-day account of Aug 8-27. Adding up tank losses gives a total of 13 Cromwells and 2 Stuarts mentioned as written off.
The consolidated total given for 8-27 Aug is Cromwell 16 KO, 12 damaged. Stuart 4 KO, 2 damaged. This leaves 3 Cromwell KO and 2 Stuart KO as not mentioned. 9 damaged Cromwells are also mentioned. This allows 3 Cromwell and 2 Stuart KO and 3 Cromwell damaged to be possible victims on Aug 9th.

[Michael Kenny]

" Regarding the quoted Polish History work, how many tanks were combat fit in the 10 PSK on the quoted day of combat,

If you are talking about Aug 8 let me give you a clue. It was their first day in combat since landing in Normandy.
For Aug 9 they had 2 tank casualties on the previous day Aug 8.

The book is neither written mainly about a tank unit

.

Incorrect. It is a book about 1st Polish Armoured Division 1944-45 in NWE.

nor composed by a tank vet.

Correct. His father was one.

I have received combat after action reports/diaries from Panzer unit vets.

Let me disabuse you of the belief you are the only person who has such information.
I also know/knew some veterans and have obtained information/documents from them.
What is more I constantly cross-check and keep updating my sources whilst others are stuck in the past wedded to 1960s-70s outdated one-sided accounts.

American, British and German, that I have read do not have detailed loss data in men and machines from all its units.

You cant have read many (dare I say any?) British Unit books because they nearly all have a 'Roll Of Honour' at the back where every KIA is listed nearly always with date and location.
Sample page from The Scots Guards 1919-55

Hpool Portrait294.jpg

The polish book has an appendix at the back with a list of over 5,000 names from 1st Polish AD.

Does the book Michael quotes (1) list the complete killed, wounded, missing names of all its men from all the Division's units? (2) does it have complete tank losses for the whole life of the Division? (3) Thus what kind of daily/weekly/monthly tank destroyed and damaged loss figures does it have?

Yet again you question only the Allied book.

Polish 1st Armoured Division August 1944-April 1945

Tank Losses

Sherman 172
Cromwell 51
Stuart 35
Command Tanks 7 = 265 tanks

Sexton 12

M3 Half Track 15
Carriers 138
Art guns 15

For those who believe in Polish Tank Regiments losing 40-60 tanks a day here are the total 1944-45 losses per Regiment.
10th Polish Armoured Brigade
1st Tank Rgt = 53 M4
2nd Tank Rgt = 68 M4
24 Uhlans. = 48 M4

Recce Regiment

10th Mounted Rifles = 52 Cromwell

Combined Divisional Stuart loss was 35 tanks

[Miles Krogfus]

Polish losses in Totalize came at a much different rate than in April 1945 . . .

[Michael Kenny]

I will post quotes and loss figures from the 28th Canadian AR diary (with its CO Worthington) for August 9,1944 tomorrow in the Ron K. section.

Try this:

http://canadianmilitaryhistory.ca/wp-co ... -Force.pdf

[pintere]

I have made a big mistake in my earlier post.

http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 3#p2001723

The date of the action I posted was 8th Aug not 9th. The incident in Szamveber concerns Worthington Force and the attempt by 10 PSK to make contact with them. 10 PSK say their losses were 'significant'. I will reply more fully when I sort it all out.

So then it was probably not all Polish tanks that his 13 kills for the day come from, but Canadian ones as well.

No. It was 10 PSK. See map on page 309 of No Holding Back by Reid.

I have that book on me right now, but I don't see why there couldn't have been some tanks from Worthington? They were in the right place and the right time as described by Eckstein's citation. It might have been the Poles, it might have been the Canadians, it might have been a mix of the two. Either way, it's obvious that there was enough allied tank casualties in the area described by Eckstein's citation for him to be credited for enough of them.

[Michael Kenny]

I will post quotes and loss figures from the 28th Canadian AR diary (with its CO Worthington) for August 9,1944 tomorrow in the Ron K. section.

No need. We can go straight to the source and need no filtering of the text.

Worthington Force 28 CAR (BC Rgt) Aug 9 1944 (1399).SML.jpg

Worthington Force 28 CAR (BC Rgt) Aug 9 1944 (1400). SML.jpg

Worthington Force 28 CAR (BC Rgt) Aug 9 1944 (1401).SML.jpg

Worthington Force 28 CAR (BC Rgt) Aug 9 1944 (1402).SML.jpg

Worthington Force 28 CAR (BC Rgt) Aug 9 1944 (1403)SML..jpg

[Michael Kenny]

1493(1) SML.jpg

1493(1)SML.jpg

1493(2) SML.jpg

Full list of casualties can be seen here:


http://heritage.canadiana.ca/view/oocih ... 88?r=0&s=2
http://heritage.canadiana.ca/view/oocih ... 89?r=0&s=2
http://heritage.canadiana.ca/view/oocih ... 90?r=0&s=2
http://heritage.canadiana.ca/view/oocih ... 91?r=0&s=2
http://heritage.canadiana.ca/view/oocih ... 92?r=0&s=2

[Michael Kenny]

Military map of the Worthington action

St Pierre Sur Dives 7F-4 (2)ddg.jpg

Air photo taken 15 June 1944.

x 400 0240 (4108) end worth.jpg

Air view after the engagement with tank wrecks still in place

xxc Worthington tanks.jpg

Air view 1947

x Worthington location 1947halvedzoomhj.jpg

[Miles Krogfus]

Good aerial views.