SS-Pz.Rgt. 1 - Feb 43

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ahickman
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SS-Pz.Rgt. 1 - Feb 43

#1

Post by ahickman » 14 Jan 2009, 14:23

Hello all,

I wonder if someone can help me understand why, when the LSSAH was sent to the eastern front in Feb 43, why they seem so under strength in panzers. According to Panzertruppen Vol 2., they had 52 Pz IV in six companies. This would mean that the average strength would be 8, plus 2 tanks in each battalion command staff. I would have thought that you would reorganize on a fewer number of companies, in order to prevent diluting your strength over so many units?

Thanks

Alex

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stoveb
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Re: SS Pz.Regt 1 - Feb 43

#2

Post by stoveb » 15 Jan 2009, 04:48

Hi There,

I guess it comes down to expansion plans. The Panzer-Abteilung LSSAH , formed around April 1942, had three Kompanien of ten Panzer IV's, (4 Ausf F-2/G and six F-1 per Kompanie) and a light Zug of three Panzer II Ausf F.

In October 1942, this was expanded to a Regiment, but with the 4th and 8th Kompanien yet to be formed. The Tiger Kompanie would take the 4th Kompanie name until after Kharkov, the 8th only being formed pre Kursk, when the 1-4 Kompanien had been re-assigned to form the Division "HJ", and a new 1-4 Kompanien were formed in Germany to make a Panther-Bataillon.

The formation in Feb 1943 was based on the KStN 1171, 1-11-1941, which was for three Züge of four vehicles each per Kompanie, but they were short one Zug per Kompanie.

So in short, the unit was intended to be bigger, but shortages of new vehicles and training probably contributed to the smaller numbers. Out of the SS Panzer-Regiments, the LSSAH had more Panzer IV's than any of the others at the time of Feb 1943.

Only in December 1943 did the LSSAH enter combat with a full strength Panzer-Regiment, with 8 official Kompanien and the additional 13th Tiger Kompanie from sSS-Pz.Abt. 101.

Cheers
Steve


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Re: SS Pz.Regt 1 - Feb 43

#3

Post by charles.sumpter » 24 Apr 2015, 22:49

I have tried to solve that issue as well: only 52 PIVs. In examining the numerous fotos of the Feb 43 period I am guessing the following distribution: 1. Kp. : 10 PzIV (2 in the command section and 4 each in two platoons, numbered I. and II. zeuge); 2. Kp.: ditto; 3. Kp.: a mystery -- fotos from the Paris parade show PzIV F-2s maked I. Zuge (my guess: likely two platoons for the parade at least. However I see no tanks marked as 3. Kp. on the Eastern Front in the Kharkov campaign, and no pictures of F-2s in the LAH at all -- I don't think the PzIV F-2s made it to Russia, possibly not the personnel either); 4. Kp. 9 Tigers, 10 PzIIIj; 5. Kp.: same as 1. and 2. Kp. (based on a foto of Pz# 528); 6.Kp. and 7. Kp.: same as 1. Kp.; and finally no 8. Kp. (at least no tanks. Interesting is the series of fotos of 3 x PzIIIj (5cmKurz), numbered "554, 555, 556" and 3 x PzII numbered "557, 558, 559." I believe this is a Stabs Kp for the Panzer Regiment. It's a guess based on the formation of the Panzer formation originally as a battalion then expanded later to a regiment. The "5XX" series would have been open for designation as Battalion HQ tanks. Also the use of the number '5' as the second digit was not used in any of the companies at this time. The individual tanks used '5, 6, 7, 8, 9' peculiar to this period for the LAH. My foto source is Jean Restayn's THE BATTLE OF KHARKOV.
I think the formation for Feb 1943 was:
Rgt: 3 x PIII (as Befehls), 3 x Pz II (recon)
I. Abt: Stabs Kp: 1 x Pz IVG, 3 x Pz III (befehls)
1. Kp: 10 PzIVG
2. Kp: 10 Pz IG
3. Kp: no tanks
4. Kp: 9 Tigers, 10 PzIIIj (l)
II. Abt: Stabs: same as I. Abt
5. Kp: 10 Pz IVG
6. Kp: 10 Pz IVG
7. Kp: 10 Pz IVG
I noted tanks with "061" "064" and "053" I believe these numbers designated battalion staff tanks. I am aware that '053-055' were later used for regimental staff tanks numbers. Anyway, that adds up to 52 x PzIVs quoted in many sources.
Any thoughts?

EugE
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Re: SS-Pz.Rgt. 1 - Feb 43

#4

Post by EugE » 26 Apr 2015, 20:26

The amount of the 52 x PzIVs quoted in many sources was tacken from NARA documents(T78R619) but this document has dated by February of 1943- I dont remember the date. We must bear in mind that LAH was in action from the beginning of February...
Look for it and you will find it...

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Re: SS-Pz.Rgt. 1 - Feb 43

#5

Post by charles.sumpter » 29 Apr 2015, 06:32

EugE: point well taken. However Lehmann states that the first combat elements of LAH (I/1SSPzG, AA and a couple of batteries of artillery and battery of 88s) did not arrive until 29 January. I cannot determine (may need to read more thoroughly) when the Panzer Regiment arrived -- certainily looks like not until February. Is there a date on that NARA (T78R619) document. I am trying to find the 3. Pz Kp./1SS Pz Rgt.
Thank you, I was afraid this might be a dead topic.
Charles

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Re: SS-Pz.Rgt. 1 - Feb 43

#6

Post by j keenan » 29 Apr 2015, 09:37

SS-Pz.Rgt.1 arrived 7.2.43
13.2.43
12 Pz.II
12 Pz.III
41 Pz.IV
all Tigers out of action
21.2.43
49 Pz.IV
6 Tigers
24.2.43 resting Krasnograd

charles.sumpter
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Re: SS-Pz.Rgt. 1 - Feb 43

#7

Post by charles.sumpter » 29 Apr 2015, 18:20

Thank you j keenan.
Where did you get this information. I spent an hour last night reading Lehmann, who is pretty good about describing the arrival by train of the various battalions of the 1SS and 2SS PzG regiment, but could not find an arrival of a single element of the Panzer Regiment. I looked in Restayn's book at the fotos (some have dates given) and found Panzer "718' with a date of 2.11.43. Interestingly it is knocked out, meaning it, and the Regiment was in combat on that date.
So guessing (I know some of you do not like guessing and I do appreciate that attitude -- it gives a lot of value to the level of research) from your post, above: the panzer regiment arrived on 7.2.43, we do not yet know with how many PzIVs, that 6 days later is was down to 42 PzIVs 'operationally ready.' I added this last part as a deduction from your message, especially the part "all Tigers out of action" and the "21.2.43 6 Tigers." Unless 6 brand new Tigers were shipped -- doubtful.
Could you confirm that the above figures are "combat ready."
Back to the original post: the PzIV question of 52 tanks and why so few and what was their organization? If the panzer regiment had 5 companies of 10 each as I suggest, the regiment lost 10 (combat ready?) in 6 days. If on the other hand, the regiment had 6 companies of 10 each, it lost 20 (again combat ready?). Both are very plausible. And we still do not know how many were in repair (yes that assumes your figures are combat ready).
Wish I had some more pictures to check. I am very suspecious that out of some 800? fotos in Restayn, that I can find no turret numbers for 3. Kompanie.
Thank you for your posts.
Charles

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Re: SS-Pz.Rgt. 1 - Feb 43

#8

Post by j keenan » 29 Apr 2015, 19:53

A lot of different books
They're combat ready figures,the Tigers came back after repair,
the highest turret number I've seen in photos for that period is 8

EugE
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Re: SS-Pz.Rgt. 1 - Feb 43

#9

Post by EugE » 30 Apr 2015, 03:28

the organization of a company was: 2 platoons on 4 tanks and 2 tanks in management - 10 tanks per a company. It gave 60 tanks per PzRgt plus 9 Tigers and 10 PzKpfw III in schwere kompanie plus few command tanks
Look for it and you will find it...

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Re: SS-Pz.Rgt. 1 - Feb 43

#10

Post by charles.sumpter » 30 Apr 2015, 03:55

I checked my Jentz source and have another guess. Jentz lists:
12 PzII
10 PzIII (lg)
52 PzIV (lg)
9 Pz VI
9 Pz PzBef
Jentz gives the date as [no day]February 43. Using the numbers 10 PzIII and 9 PzVI, one has the full complement for KStN 1176d, dated 15.8.42 for schwere Panzerkompanie d (Jentz again). This could mean the 52 PzIVs Jentz lists is the complete complement for the panzer regiment going into Russia. Jentz however shows a schematic of 6 x 'm' companies. I do not know how accurate Jentz is for the number of companies or types of tanks. He is in the end a secondary source. I am not familiar with the term NARA documents, but the 'T' + number sounds like a scroll number for captured documents in US archives -- is that so? That would make it a primary source.
My other note regarding my speculation to the "missing 3. Kp." is the evidence from the Paris parade: tank numbers '317 and 318' painted on PZIV F-2s. I do not see any fotos of F-2s, nor '3. Kp.' turret marks on LAH tanks in the period February-March 1943. Going back to the 'parade' footage I also note the LaS 762 (Skfz 132), present in the parade, is nowhere to be seen in the Feb-Mar '43 Russia fotos. The tanks look fresh painted with oversized LAH markings. One would expect this for a parade, but I am suspicious the parade performed multiple functions (reminding the French who was boss, letting the western allies know a big panzer division was in town, amoungst motives), that spguns and the F-2s may have been short-term organizations or 'borrowed' panzers. I also note the 'parade' Stug IIIs with what looks to be yellow paint, which fotographic evidence shows did show up on the eastern front, though I cannot be sure if with the LSSAH. Restayn has a good color plate section referencing this.
My last offering as to the correctness of the above Jentz figures is the PzII count: 12 tanks looks like the full establishment, though I am not sure of the distribution. The foto evidence shows panzernummer '557, 558, 559.'
As I cannot find a '560' turret number (556 is a PzIIIkz), does not mean that there was no '560.' The numbers for PzII were initially at the formation of the LAH battalion: 3x Bn St K, 3x in each mittlere Kp, yielding 12 altogether (Lehmann). Yet this figure begs the question "what changes did the re-organization to a panzer regiment bring to these figures?" I do not know, and I am probably guilty of too much guessing.
My final guess: the LAH did not keep the PzIVF-2s and somehow got PzIVGs, probably straight off the factories while traveling east to Russia. I do not think they kept the LaS 762s either and got the superior Marder IIIs (skfz 138) [also Jentz Encyclopedia of German Tanks], fresh off the factory. LAH's panzer regiment appears one of the last of its units to arrive in theater from the 7.2.43 date above. I think 52 PzIV is the starting figure.
Am I guessing too much,
thank you
Charles

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Re: SS-Pz.Rgt. 1 - Feb 43

#11

Post by EugE » 30 Apr 2015, 11:19

All tanks which were in use for the forming PzAbt were exchanged during Pz.Rgt. forming. The LAH StuG.Abt was forming during the end of 1942 and had 22 StuG III when it arrived to Russia(NARA T78 R620). The 3 pz.kompanie which you have seen on the parade later had renamed to 7 coy. because the PzAbt. has become the II./PzRgt.
Look for it and you will find it...

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Re: SS-Pz.Rgt. 1 - Feb 43

#12

Post by charles.sumpter » 01 May 2015, 08:20

Yes EugE, I follow that, but I am looking for 3. Kp's PzIVF-2s. All the fotos I can be certin of, 704,718,726,728 (Restayn), are PzIVGs. It may well be the original 3.Kp became 7.Kp, but it doesn't look like the kompanie brought it F-2s with them, does not appear the Panzer regiment kept them either. As I find no pictures of any tanks marked with 3.Kp marks, I speculate that the kompanie had no tanks, ergo my speculation, again yes a guess, that only 1.,2.,5.,6., and 7.Kompanien, had PzIVs, ammounting to 52 PzIVs (Jentz).
I would love to see more fotos, especially comparing to the 'hard' primary sources you fellas have to settle this little riddle. Thank you all for your input.
I first got this 'forensic' bug many years ago with Paullud's [sic?] After the Battle, Battle of the Bulge, and furthered my interest with the Duel in the Mist series. There is an amazing ammount of information on this website.
Thank you webmasters, thank you website
Charles

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Re: SS-Pz.Rgt. 1 - Feb 43

#13

Post by j keenan » 01 May 2015, 13:39

The 3/SS-Pz.Rgt.1
was there

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Re: SS-Pz.Rgt. 1 - Feb 43

#14

Post by j keenan » 01 May 2015, 14:18

The 3 m.Pz.Kp. formed in 10.42 using KStN.1175 v. 1.11.41

EugE
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Re: SS-Pz.Rgt. 1 - Feb 43

#15

Post by EugE » 01 May 2015, 19:10

charles.sumpter wrote:Yes EugE, I follow that, but I am looking for 3. Kp's PzIVF-2s. All the fotos I can be certin of, 704,718,726,728 (Restayn), are PzIVGs. It may well be the original 3.Kp became 7.Kp, but it doesn't look like the kompanie brought it F-2s with them, does not appear the Panzer regiment kept them either. As I find no pictures of any tanks marked with 3.Kp marks, I speculate that the kompanie had no tanks, ergo my speculation, again yes a guess, that only 1.,2.,5.,6., and 7.Kompanien, had PzIVs, ammounting to 52 PzIVs (Jentz).
You aren't attentive to that that we write
Look for it and you will find it...

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