German irregular formations in Poland 1939

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German irregular formations in Poland 1939

Post by Peter K » 27 Mar 2009 17:46

[Split from the German detailed losses 1939 thread]
Rian wrote:Some about german irregural formations (Freikorps and Selbschutz).

During fights on Silesia Freikorps receive heavy casualties. From polish forum odkrywca - in Michalkowice coal mine part of Freikorps Ebbinghaus - Kampfgruppe Pisarski - lost about 50 KIA (including commander). In Chorzów - probably about 60 KIA, in Katowice during fights between polish and german irregural formations - 174 Germans was killed.
Other fight was 1 sept. on "Orzeł Biały" coal mine in Piekary Śląskie. 5 Germans was killed. Next day on same city was killed 3 german saboteurs.
That's only few places where Freikorps fought.

Selbschutz was active mostly on territory of Pomerania (17667 members), Wielkopolska, Silesia, Lodz. German irregurals and saboteurs fought in Bydgoszcz 3-4 september.

First fights between polish army and german irregurals started few days before 1st september.
Here is an interesting photo of some Freikorps soldiers in Poland in September of 1939 (the city which can be seen in the photo is Katowice or maybe Bytom / other city?):

Image

OdeB of FdGDA (Freikorps der Gewerkschaft Deutscher Arbeiter) in Silesia in 1939:

- Ortsgruppe Bielitz
- Ortsgruppe Kattowitz
- Ortsgruppe Rybnik

FdGDA in Silesia was created in May of 1939 on initiative of Rudolf Wiesner, director of national Jungdeutsche Partei.

Units of FdGDA were being organized by Hauptmann Fleck and Hauptmann Funk from Oberkommando der Wehrmacht. Their outpost was in Breslau / Wroclaw.

Main tasks of FdGDA units in Poland before the Polenfeldzug were:

- gathering weapons for "V Column"
- conducting military training of other saboteurs
- organizing provocations and sabotage actions

Main tasks of FdGDA units in Poland during the Polenfeldzug were:

- keeping "order" until the Wehrmacht units arive
- sabotage actions
- military actions against the Polish Army (main combats were: attack on Polish foundry "Zygmunt" in Bytom, attack on Polish power station in Chorzow and attack on Polish coal mine "Michal" in Michalkowice - each of these actions ended in a defeat for the Germans)

Freikorps is also responsible for war crimes on Polish civilians and POWs, such as murdering former Polish Silesian insurgents in Katowice on 04.09.1939.

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Marcus
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Re: German irregural formations in Poland 1939

Post by Marcus » 28 Mar 2009 14:34

Interesting information, thanks.

I've started a thread for discussions on the warcrimes your mentioned above at http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=151354

/Marcus

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Re: German irregular formations in Poland 1939

Post by Semenov » 29 Mar 2009 05:45

Domen121 wrote:

Here is an interesting photo of some Freikorps soldiers in Poland in September of 1939 (the city which can be seen in the photo is Katowice or maybe Bytom / other city?):

Image
Hi,
on my opnion they wear yugoslaw caps, it is not Poland

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Re: German irregular formations in Poland 1939

Post by Nicole S. » 02 Apr 2009 16:02

Looks rather like a damn faked story. If there was at least a miligram of truth in it you would have found something in the postwar GDR historiography.

Horrido!

Nicole

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Re: German irregular formations in Poland 1939

Post by Njorl » 04 Apr 2009 12:46

Nicole S. wrote:Looks rather like a damn faked story. If there was at least a miligram of truth in it you would have found something in the postwar GDR historiography.
Nicole, which part exactly are you referring to?

Wandering through Volksbund's database sometimes gives unexpected results...
Nachname: Ordon
Vorname: Ludwig
Dienstgrad: Freiwilliger
Geburtsdatum: 18.09.1914
Geburtsort: Ellgut-Woischnik
Todes-/Vermisstendatum: 01.09.1939
Todes-/Vermisstenort: Hohenlinde b/Beuthen
Nachname: Bulla
Vorname: Robert
Dienstgrad: Freiwilliger
Geburtsdatum: 03.11.1914
Geburtsort: Halernba/Kattowitz
Todes-/Vermisstendatum: 01.09.1939
Todes-/Vermisstenort: Hindenburg O.S. Delbrük-Schächte
Nachname: Breitkopf
Vorname: Hans
Dienstgrad: Freiwilliger
Geburtsdatum: 23.08.1910
Geburtsort: Kattowitz
Todes-/Vermisstendatum: 11.09.1939
Todes-/Vermisstenort: Beuthen/O.S.
Nachname: Brauner
Vorname: Josef
Dienstgrad: Freiwilliger
Geburtsdatum: 13.03.1912
Geburtsort: Königshütte
Todes-/Vermisstendatum: 01.09.1939
Todes-/Vermisstenort: Königshütte
Do these entries count as comparable to something in the postwar GDR historiography?

Regards,
MJU

EDIT: Domen, Bytom/Beuthen was German since 1922.

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Re: German irregular formations in Poland 1939

Post by Peter K » 07 Apr 2009 01:22

Hi Nicole,
Nicole wrote:Looks rather like a damn faked story. If there was at least a miligram of truth in it you would have found something in the postwar GDR historiography.

Horrido!

Nicole
If it comes to German (old, not postwar *) historiography concerning German sabotage in Upper Silesia in August and September of 1939, check out for example:

- Bartosch, Georg, "OS wird frei! Tatsachenbericht aus den August- und Septembertagen 1939", Verlag Grenze und Ausland, 1940
- Vogel, Rudolf, "Grenzerjunge im Blitzkrieg", Union Deutsche Verlagsgesellschaft, Stuttgart, 1940

If it comes to German primary sources, files of Abwehra (mainly archives of Breslau Abwehra - but also of Abwehra from Konigsberg and Berlin) are the best here.

There is an excellent Polish study of Breslau Abwehra files regarding the German sabotage in Poland before and during the WWII - A. Szefer, "Dywersyjno - sabotazowa dzialalnosc wroclawskiej Abwehry na ziemiach polskich w przededniu agresji hitlerowskiej w 1939 r." ("Subversive - sabotage activity of Breslau Abwehra in Polish territories on the eve of the Hitler's aggression in 1939").

Another excellent Polish study of Polish and German documents concerning the German sabotage in Poland is "Niemiecka dywersja w Polsce w 1939 r. w swietle dokumentów policyjnych i wojskowych II Rzeczpospolitej oraz słuzb specjalnych III Rzeszy" by Tomasz Chincinski ("German sabotage in Poland in 1939 in the light of police and military documents of the II Republic of Poland and special services of the III Reich").

There is also a publication on German sabotage in Silesia and Land of Cracow by M. Cyganski, titled "Hitlerowska V kolumna w woj. slaskim i krakowskim w 1939 roku".

Also such books as "Wrzesien 1939 na Slasku" by Pawel Dubiel or books by Jan Przemsza-Zielinski say about sabotage actions described above.

I also recommend the book by Richard Basset titled "Hitler's spy chief: The Wilhelm Canaris Mystery", which provides the answer why German "V Column" in Poland in 1939, despite being so numerous, was - usually - not very efficient.

* And why modern German historiography did not write anything about German sabotage in Poland in 1939? I don't know - maybe you should ask German historians. :wink:

Best regards!
Peter

PS:
Njorl wrote:Todes-/Vermisstenort: Hohenlinde b/Beuthen
Hohenlinde = Łagiewniki, locality near Bytom

Beuthen = Bytom

http://wikimapia.org/3556180/de/%C5%81a ... Hohenlinde
Njorl wrote:Todes-/Vermisstenort: Königshütte
Königshütte = Chorzów

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Re: German irregular formations in Poland 1939

Post by Peter K » 07 Apr 2009 02:07

part of Freikorps Ebbinghaus - Kampfgruppe Pisarski
By the way:

Ebbinghaus (commander of Organisation / Kampftruppe Ebbinghaus, sometimes also called Freikorps Ebbinghaus) was not his real surname, but only his pseudonym - his real name was Hauptmann von Hippel, Theodor:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theodor_von_Hippel

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Re: German irregular formations in Poland 1939

Post by Jan-Hendrik » 07 Apr 2009 07:47

So we hav e no mysterious "Freikorps" but a Brandenburger Operation...

Nice that we finally get to know what we are talking about :wink:

Jan-Hendrik

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Re: German irregular formations in Poland 1939

Post by Peter K » 07 Apr 2009 16:45

So we hav e no mysterious "Freikorps" but a Brandenburger Operation...
It is not mysterious for anyone except you.

Freikorps Ebbinghaus = Kampftruppe Ebbinghaus = Organisation Ebbinghaus = Bataillon Ebbinghaus

This unit had got many different names.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brandenburger_Regiment

Fifth Columnists from Freikorps Ebbinghaus:

Image

Btw:

Freikorps der Gewerkschaft Deutscher Arbeiter was a different thing, if you was reffering to this organization.

Freikorps der Gewerkschaft Deutscher Arbeiter was created in May of 1939 at the initiative of Rudolf Wiesner, director of national Jungdeutsche Partei in Silesia.

There were also such "V column" organizations like:

Kampforganisation (their task was to protect important objects like bridges, roads, tunnels, railways, etc.)
Sabotageorganisation (their task was to destroy important objects behind the Polish lines to isolate the second stage and reserves of the Polish Army)
Fallschirmorganisation (saboteurs from this organization were carrying out air landings behind the Polish lines - they were very active for example in the operational area of Polish Southern Grouping of the "Prusy" Army)

There were also "V column" units called Betriebeschutz and Industrieschutz - they were ordered to protect Polish factories, mines and foundries from being destroyed by withdrawing Polish Army.

Abwehra also had got its agents in the Polish Army - these units were called Regiments-Organisationen.

Both Kampf-, Sabotage- and Fallschirmorganisations had got 4,474 members in Silesian Voivodeship alone in July of 1939.

In August of 1939 there were 1,140 German saboteurs in front of the positions of German 5. Panzer-Division alone.

On 15.08.1939 Polish counterintelligence started to liquidate the German sabotage network in Silesia (which had been already "cracked" since quite a long time, but until 15.08.1939 Polish services only observed German sabotage preparations), at the end of August another wave of custodies (this time a top-secret wave) took place - as a result the majority of German saboteurs in Silesia spent the beginning of war in prisons or escaped to Germany - unfortunately the results of Polish actions were not 100% efficient and still many German saboteurs were active on 01.09.1939.

More over, German propaganda was trying to talk the world into believing that Poles were arresting "innocent ethnic Germans", not members of sabotage network (mainly local ethnic Germans, but also "visitors" from Germany) which was cooperating with the German Abwehra. That's why for example after the first wave of liquidation of the German sabotage in Silesia which started on 15.08.1939, Western Allies - especcialy as always pro-German England - protested and demanded to release arrested persons - many of them came back to sabotage organizations (that's why the second wave of custodies in late August was a top-secret operation).

Probably the biggest achievement of the German "V Column" in Silesia before the war was achieved by the K-Organisation unit of the section Rybnik - Pszczyna under command of Kurt Unger (local ethnic German) in cooperation with the Regiments-Organisation in Polish 55. Infantry Division:

"Als Beispiel fur die Unterhohlung der polnischen Wehrmacht fuhren wir noch an, dass Reserveoffizier Walter Wollny aus Rybnik als Fuhrer einer ganzen Kompanie mit 3 MG, 3 Munitionwagen und seiner Kompanie sich gegen den polnischen Fend wandte und sich dann dem deutschen Militar stellte. Zu unseren grossen Freude war es uns vergonnt, mit den deutschen Truppen mit einzumarschieren." - fragment of a document quoted by A. Szefer in "Subversive - sabotage activity of Breslau Abwehra in Polish territories on the eve of the Hitler's aggression in 1939", page 348.

This Polish company was the National Defense Company "Rybnik".

And probably the biggest "success" of over 1,000 men-strong K-Organisation Pless Abschnitt Pless-Rybnik during the battle for Silesia was:

"Sicherung und Instandsetzung der Strasse nordl. Rydultau" - Szefer, page 335.

German saboteurs arrested in the area of Pszczyna in August of 1939 were kept in the prison in Pszczyna - this prison was fired at by German artillery on 02.09.1939.

So definitiely the German "V column" in Silesia wasn't very efficient - unlike the "V column" in some other parts of Poland.

Regards
Peter

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Re: German irregular formations in Poland 1939

Post by Bartolomiux » 11 Apr 2009 22:26

Domen121 wrote:[Split from the German detailed losses 1939 thread]
Rian wrote:Some about german irregural formations (Freikorps and Selbschutz).

During fights on Silesia Freikorps receive heavy casualties. From polish forum odkrywca - in Michalkowice coal mine part of Freikorps Ebbinghaus - Kampfgruppe Pisarski - lost about 50 KIA (including commander). In Chorzów - probably about 60 KIA, in Katowice during fights between polish and german irregural formations - 174 Germans was killed.
Other fight was 1 sept. on "Orzeł Biały" coal mine in Piekary Śląskie. 5 Germans was killed. Next day on same city was killed 3 german saboteurs.
That's only few places where Freikorps fought.

Selbschutz was active mostly on territory of Pomerania (17667 members), Wielkopolska, Silesia, Lodz. German irregurals and saboteurs fought in Bydgoszcz 3-4 september.

First fights between polish army and german irregurals started few days before 1st september.
Here is an interesting photo of some Freikorps soldiers in Poland in September of 1939 (the city which can be seen in the photo is Katowice or maybe Bytom / other city?):

Image

OdeB of FdGDA (Freikorps der Gewerkschaft Deutscher Arbeiter) in Silesia in 1939:

- Ortsgruppe Bielitz
- Ortsgruppe Kattowitz
- Ortsgruppe Rybnik

FdGDA in Silesia was created in May of 1939 on initiative of Rudolf Wiesner, director of national Jungdeutsche Partei.

Units of FdGDA were being organized by Hauptmann Fleck and Hauptmann Funk from Oberkommando der Wehrmacht. Their outpost was in Breslau / Wroclaw.

Main tasks of FdGDA units in Poland before the Polenfeldzug were:

- gathering weapons for "V Column"
- conducting military training of other saboteurs
- organizing provocations and sabotage actions

Main tasks of FdGDA units in Poland during the Polenfeldzug were:

- keeping "order" until the Wehrmacht units arive
- sabotage actions
- military actions against the Polish Army (main combats were: attack on Polish foundry "Zygmunt" in Bytom, attack on Polish power station in Chorzow and attack on Polish coal mine "Michal" in Michalkowice - each of these actions ended in a defeat for the Germans)

Freikorps is also responsible for war crimes on Polish civilians and POWs, such as murdering former Polish Silesian insurgents in Katowice on 04.09.1939.
Image

It's 100% in Katowice (kattowitz). You can see (nowadays Slowacki's) Theatre in the background. I wonder when this photo has been made exactly..?

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Re: German irregular formations in Poland 1939

Post by Nicole S. » 13 Apr 2009 10:15

Nicole, which part exactly are you referring to?

The wild Freikorps claims. It is well known that there were a handful operations by "Brandenburg" units, but not the speculated masses with battles of thousands of people involved in as the starting post of this topic tries to suggest the readers. That Volksdeutsche established a Kind of Selbstschutz after they had experienced how the got treated by polish army and militia is another topic.Especially in Silesia the germans for sure remembered the behaviour of the poles when they tried to annex whole Oberschlesien after WW1.

So the possibilty is high that the starter of this Thread mixes up wildly all kind of units.

Horrido!

Nicole

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Re: German irregular formations in Poland 1939

Post by Peter K » 13 Apr 2009 16:18

Hi Nicole!
It is well known that there were a handful operations by "Brandenburg" units
But "Brandenburg" units were only a small part of German sabotage in Poland.

[parts of the post was moved to http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=151975 and http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=151354 /Marcus]

Best regards!
Peter

------------------------------------

Edit:
It's 100% in Katowice (kattowitz). You can see (nowadays Slowacki's) Theatre in the background. I wonder when this photo has been made exactly..?
Certainly in September of 1939 - most probably soon after Katowice were captured by Germans (so on 04.09.1939 or later).

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Re: German irregular formations in Poland 1939

Post by Marcus » 14 Apr 2009 12:58

The parts of the discussion dealing with war crimes was moved to the previously mentioned thread at http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=151354 and a new one at http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=151975
Those aspects are very important but please keep those discussions in the Holocaust & War Crimes section, thanks.

/Marcus

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Re: German irregular formations in Poland 1939

Post by tigre » 16 Apr 2009 08:30

Hello to all :D; I'd like to add just a little thing................

Fifth Columnists from Freikorps Ebbinghaus:
Image
Those guys were the KO "Jablunka" under Leutnant Dr. Hans-Albrecht Herzner. They had the mission of avoiding the destruction of the tunnel located at Jablunka pass near the railway station of Mosty and they did so on Aug 26 1939....following orders from the Abwehr-abteilung II (Breslau) under Hauptmann Dingler. That picture was taken probably somewhere near Cadca (Slovakia).

Cheers. Raúl M 8-).

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Re: German irregular formations in Poland 1939

Post by Rian » 08 Jul 2009 17:05

tigre wrote:Hello to all :D; I'd like to add just a little thing................

Fifth Columnists from Freikorps Ebbinghaus:
Image
Those guys were the KO "Jablunka" under Leutnant Dr. Hans-Albrecht Herzner. They had the mission of avoiding the destruction of the tunnel located at Jablunka pass near the railway station of Mosty and they did so on Aug 26 1939....following orders from the Abwehr-abteilung II (Breslau) under Hauptmann Dingler. That picture was taken probably somewhere near Cadca (Slovakia).

Cheers. Raúl M 8-).
Very good Raul. So - german irregural saboteur units in Poland in 1939 are not "myth" ;)

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