German irregular formations in Poland 1939

[Jan-Hendrik]

Because the Jablunka operation of the 'Brandenburgers' is such a big 'Nowosci'

Jan-Hendrik

[tigre]

Hello Rian, JH and all ; there were not a myth and there were not saboteurs, in fact those guys were trying to avoid the destruction ("own sabotage") on the main railway tunnel there and they did so the first time but the poles took the chance and the tunnel was blown into the sky the second time 01 Sep 1939 when approaching the 7 ID. JH broadly speaking those guys could be called "brandenburgers" but in fact they were Abwehr-truppen of the Kampforganizationen, the Bau-Lehr-Bataillon z.b.V. 800's root.

sabotage
destruction of or damage to equipment, installations, etc, in an industrial context, as in a labor dispute, or in a military context, as in the action of partisan or resistance movements.

So they sabotaged the polish "sabotage" I would call those guys, forces for special employment.

and those guys in Oberschlesien or Górny Śląsk also did not try to destroy but to avoid it with regards to the factories located there.........

Cheers. Raúl M .

[Piotr Kapuscinski]

there were not saboteurs, in fact those guys were trying to avoid the destruction ("own sabotage")

So they sabotaged the polish "sabotage" I would call those guys, forces for special employment.

Tigre, but this is very simple - they were parts of Kampforganisationen.

As I wrote there were three types of such German organizations:

1. Kampforganisation (their task was to protect important objects like bridges, roads, tunnels, railways, etc.)
2. Sabotageorganisation (their task was to destroy important objects behind the Polish lines to isolate the second stage and reserves of the Polish Army)
3. Fallschirmorganisation (saboteurs from this organization were carrying out air landings behind the Polish lines - they were very active for example in the operational area of Polish Southern Grouping of the "Prusy" Army)

It is logic that Kampforganisationen were active near the border while the other two were active deep inside Poland.

So they sabotaged the polish "sabotage"

Believe me, there was a formation called "sappers" (not "sabotage") in the Polish army.

[Jan-Hendrik]

3. Fallschirmorganisation (saboteurs from this organization were carrying out air landings behind the Polish lines - they were very active for example in the operational area of Polish Southern Grouping of the "Prusy" Army)

Which hard evidence do you have for this? Which planes were used, who piloted them etc.?

Jan-Hendrik

[Rian]

http://img171.imageshack.us/i/vkolumnazy5.jpg/

There are not "Brandenburgers" or other saboteur unit from Wehrmacht/Abwehra/SD. There are members of irregural Selbschutz - formation created by local Germans (polish citizens!!) on territory of Pomorze, Wielkopolska. They made saboteur/terrorist actions against Polish Army in 1939.

[tigre]

Hello Rian and all ; just to discuss or think about...depend on their birth dates, if they born before or during WW I they were Germans (or at least they felt thus) and after WW I they were polish indeed. In any case they were enlisted, armed, organized by the Abwehr and followed its orders. Cheers. Raúl M .

[Piotr Kapuscinski]

Hi Jan-Hendrik,

3. Fallschirmorganisation (saboteurs from this organization were carrying out air landings behind the Polish lines - they were very active for example in the operational area of Polish Southern Grouping of the "Prusy" Army)

Which hard evidence do you have for this? Which planes were used, who piloted them etc.?

Jan-Hendrik

You can read about them in the diary of general Erwin von Lahousen - chef of Department II of Abwehra.

There is of course also a lot of Polish sources saying about such events.

For example on 08.09.1939 the Main H.Q. of the Polish Army received 51 reports about such landings.

But probably some part of them (maybe majority) were mistakenly interpreted landings of shot down Luftwaffe pilots.

On 3 IX a German "parachute landing in the village Blota (near Falenica)" was reported - and on 03.09.39 the President of Poland was in Falenica, so the report caused panic (it was supposed that Germans were there to murder him).

------------------------

Some quotations from the diary of gen. Erwin von Lahousen:

"On 6th of September at 4:00 in the morning a strengthened unit, consisting of 3 parachutists each time, entered action with task of destroying important railways near the locality Jaroslawo."

Entry dated 05.09.1939 - 11:40 AM:

"Hptm. Flock reports, that planned on 06.09.1939 in the morning Operation F.S. [abbreviation of Fallshirm] is yet so well prepared, that two double units, each of them consisting of 3 men, were sent to the region of their activity."

Entry dated 12.09.1939 - 4:00 AM:

"On 06.09.1939 two dropped off parachute units once again reached the frontline on 12.09.1939, but their task could not be completed because the way of drop was wrongly chosen by the pilot and men landed in the middle of Polish units and even in the middle of some Polish village. They saved themselves only thanks to the fast escape, leaving part of their equipment."

-------------------------

Piotr Zarzycki in his book "Południowe Zgrupowanie Armii Prusy 1939" also writes about such events which took place in the operational area of the "Prusy" Army - many German parachutists-saboteurs were captured in that area.

Which planes were used

Everything had to be top-secret so they were usually using normal Luftwaffe planes flying on normal missions.

Probably sometimes also civilian planes (e.g. some Lufthansa planes were reported by Poles over Warsaw in Sept. 39).

/ Peter

[Jan-Hendrik]

I neither did not know that Lahousen wrote his diary in english nor that it was published anywhere

Jan-Hendrik

[Piotr Kapuscinski]

Hi Jan!,

I neither did not know that Lahousen wrote his diary in english nor that it was published anywhere.

Jan-Hendrik

1. He wrote his diary in German - what you can see above is a translated version.
2. It is an unpublished document (yet), but is quoted by Tomasz Chincinski in his detailed study on this subject:

I mentioned his excellent publication on the previous page of this thread:

"Niemiecka dywersja w Polsce w 1939 r. w swietle dokumentów policyjnych i wojskowych II Rzeczpospolitej oraz słuzb specjalnych III Rzeszy" by Tomasz Chincinski ("German sabotage in Poland in 1939 in the light of police and military documents of the II Republic of Poland and special services of the III Reich").

In case if you have any doubts, Jan - Chincinski provides the exact primary source for this diary of gen. Lahousen:

Footnote No 114 (in Part 2 of his work - which is about German sabotage in August and September):

AAN, GGRMA, No 80, OKW, mf. cz. 6, t. 77, rolka 1505, Tagenbuch gen. Lahousen.

In a different footnote (No 39) - he also provides a more clear reference to the source:

AAN, Guides to German Records Microfilmed at Alexandria [dalej GGRMA], No 80, Records
of the German Armed Forces High Command [Oberkommando der Wehrmacht, dalej: OKW], mf.
cz. 6, t. 77, rolka 1505, Tagenbuch gen. Lahousen.

(cz. = part; t. = volume; rolka = roll)

Chincinski even went one step further, and he managed - basing on BAMA archives - to establish surnames of some small part of the Polish citizens of German nationality who served in Fallshirm Organisation (see footnote No 115).

The whole work of Tomasz Chincinski - which is widely supported by German archival sources (and even more widely by Polish - so it may be precious for German historians) - can be found here, available online in PDF format:

Part 1 of his work - German sabotage from March of 1939 to August of 1939 (pages 159 - 196 of this bulletin):

- Link to the PDF bulletin is at the bottom of this website:

http://www.ipn.gov.pl/portal/pl/236/374 ... 00_zl.html

Part 2 of his work - German sabotage from August of 1939 to September of 1939 (pages 165 - 198 of this bulletin):

http://www.ipn.gov.pl/portal/pl/236/440 ... 00_zl.html

Nicole also wrote on the previous page of this thread:

If there was at least a miligram of truth in it you would have found something in the postwar GDR historiography.

Dear Nicole - it seems that Germans are simply not interested in what can be found in their own archives.

As a matter of fact Polish historiography on the events of the Polish Campaign of 1939 is much richer than German.

I'm not sure why.

Probably because for Poles it is a very considerable part of their participation in WW2, while for Germany - not.

There are also some other plausible reasons why Germans might be not interested in this shameful part of their history - but I am not going to speculate about them on this forum.

Best regards!,
Peter

[Jan-Hendrik]

My comment should only provvoke you to give finally any exact sources, now we know at least that this has been a translation of a translation.

As a matter of fact Polish historiography on the events of the Polish Campaign of 1939 is much richer than German.

If you leave out communist propaganda works...a start is done, yes...but still to many folks around with the ususl fences in their head

There are also some other plausible reasons why Germans might be not interested in this shameful part of their history - but I am not going to speculate about them on this forum.

Because it is in the context of WW2 not more than a footnote

Probably because for Poles it is a very considerable part of their participation in WW2, while for Germany - not.

Rather because most poles do the usual "picking" as everybody else, rather following a mystical story of heroism tahn being honest to theirselves...just take a look what comes out here on AHF by our Poles when it comes to the polish atrocities...that tells us more than enough

Jan-Hendrik

[insulting remarks removed]

[Marcus]

Drop the personal remarks and generalizing comments about other nations.

/Marcus

[Piotr Kapuscinski]

If you leave out communist propaganda works...

First of all - not only in Poland but also in DDR Communist regime was present.

Moreover - it is not the fault of Poles that this phenomenon happened in their country.

That during the Communist period many Polish historians didn't have access to German sources on the other side of the Iron Curtain - is not their fault. It seems that you consider every Polish work published before 1989 as "communist propaganda work", which cannot be further from the truth. There is a whole bunch of "old, classic" authors - who were pioneers in describing the Polish campaign in Poland, some of them even participated in this campaign, like Wladyslaw Steblik (monograph of Army "Cracow" is the work of his live) or Wladyslaw Karbowski for example. Their works might have some mistakes and white spots, but they are precious basis and have nothing to do with communist propaganda. There are also several broad monographs of the campaign which are widely basing on both Polish and German sources including "Wojna Obronna Polski 1939" or several volumes-long "Polskie Siły Zbrojne w Drugiej Wojnie Światowej" published in London between 1959 and 1975 (so it has nothing to do with communism, rather anti-communism).

In case of "Polskie Siły Zbrojne w Drugiej Wojnie Światowej" only Volume I is about the Polish Campaign of 1939.

Anyway - German authors even today are basing almost only on German sources, just like Polish authors during the communist period were basing almost only on Polish sources as they didn't have access to most of German ones. Describing history only from one point of view - moreover from the point of view of the victors (as Poles lost in 1939) and from the point of view of the state ruled by the Nazis and their propaganda (which was not better than Communism and its propaganda) is not a very goood idea if you want to be close to the truth and objective.

Of course works basing only on German sources are necessary. For example I appreciate the book written by Richard Hargreaves from this forum (which I bought during the last month), as it is a valuable compilation of these events from the German point of view. But Richard is honest and clearly underlines, that this is only half of the whole story.

rather following a mystical story of heroism tahn being honest to theirselves

Probably threads about "Knight Cross Holders" or "Panzerknacker Badges" are less mystical stories of heroism...

but still to many folks around with the ususl fences in their head

The only fence of ignorance and mockery is between the Germans and the Poles in general - not in anybody's head.

If Germans consider Poles as stupid, retarded nation even nowadays then how this fence can be demolished.

If Germans still believe in Nazi myths then how this fence can be demolished.

"We owned your bigger than ours army in 1939 in 6 days without the slightest help of the Red Army and in revenge for terrible murders of our defenceless civilians by Bojowka Polska in Posen Province, so shut up and stay silent idiots."

just take a look what comes out here on AHF by our Poles when it comes to the polish atrocities...

If someone sticks to the bad habit of not supporting his claims by any sources and presents facts or his theories in such a light which cannot be accepted by any reasonable person living in 21st century then harsh reaction is necessary.

60 - 50 years ago it might have been differently but contrary to your believes nowadays Poles research their atrocities as well as their alleged and supposed atrocities.

Because it is in the context of WW2 not more than a footnote

Rather due to lack of intention among the Germans to discover the truth - instead of believing in their old myths.

PS: If this is not more than a footnote, then the whole WW2 consists of only 56 of such footnotes.

Btw:

In 2002 a two-volumes long book titled "Kampania Wrześniowa 1939. Bibliografia" ("September Campaign of 1939. Bibliography") CBW, MON 2002, (742 pages) was published. It consists of over 8600 bibliographical entries.

And I think that since 2002 until now probably a few hundreds more positions on this subject were published.

[Piotr Kapuscinski]

Kampftruppe Ebbinghaus (Brandenburgers) numbered around 1,600 fifth columnists according to documents of Breslau Abwehra, around 1,200 according to van Jong and only around 500 according to Major Dietrich Witzel (documents of Breslau Abwehra seems to be the most reliable source of information, out of these three options).

It suffered heavy casualties in Poland.

There are 174 obituaries from Kampftruppe Ebbinghaus from 1 IX alone. Of them 65 were killed in Michalkowice coal mine – 49 - or during the escape attempt in Myslowice - 16 - altogether 65 (Todesort given as "Kampfgelande Beuthen - Michalkowitz", "Maxgrube in Polen" or "Beuthen, im Kampfgelande Reichsgrenze Laurahütter Landstrasse"). Around 60 were killed in Chorzow. Further 133 men from Freikorps Ebbinghaus were wounded on 01.09.1939. Number of captured Brandenburgers from Freikorps Ebbinghaus amounted to over 87 in Michalkowice coal mine alone.

Piekary Slaskie on 02.09.1939 – 3 KIA (plus further 5 on 01.09.1939).

In Katowice on 04.09.1939 Freikorps Ebbinghaus lost further 8 KIA and 2 WIA men. According to what Rian wrote basing on forum Odkrywca – they lost 174 killed in Katowice. But according to what is written here by Wojciech Kempa - http://www.historycy.org/index.php?show ... ntry611793 – 174 killed and 133 wounded is the number of casualties suffered by Brandenburgers on 01.09.1939 and in Katowice on 04.09.1939 they lost only 8 KIA and 2 WIA.

-----------------

Among Brandenburgers killed in Michalkowice coal mine was their commander - Hauptsturmführer (according to some sources SA-Obersturmbannführer) Willy Pissarski. Polish losses in Michalkowice were much smaller than German and amounted to 8 killed soldiers + 14 killed civilians. Among these 14 killed civilians, some participated in combats.

[Rian]

Diversion unit of Organisation Ebbinghaus who attacked Michałkowice was completly destroyed by local self defence and units from III battalion of 75 IR. Of about 200 diversants - mayby 2/3 - 3/4 was killed, wounded or captured (65 KIA, 87 captured unknow number of wounded).

Polish losses in Michalkowice were much smaller than German and amounted to 8 killed soldiers + 14 killed civilians. Among these 14 killed civilians, some participated in combats.

I know some different number - 13 soldiers, 9 self-defence members, 3 miners.

[Ypenburg]

I'd like to see some proof that "Kampfverbandes Ebbinghaus" were "Brandenburgers". :roll: