Intended FJ role in Sealion

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phylo_roadking
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Re: Intended FJ role in Sealion

Post by phylo_roadking » 03 Jul 2009 14:28

I've been informed on another forum that the RAF Museum at Hendon now provide copies of airfield maps as a paid service. In the near future I'll be chasing down a map of Lympne.

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Re: Intended FJ role in Sealion

Post by Gooner1 » 03 Jul 2009 17:05

phylo_roadking wrote:I've been informed on another forum that the RAF Museum at Hendon now provide copies of airfield maps as a paid service. In the near future I'll be chasing down a map of Lympne.
TBH I doubt Lympnes defences were particularly strong. In October 1940 its AA defence were two (probably a twin-barrel) AA LMG :lol: Maybe a platoon locality, a similar number of Home Guards and a small number of RAF groundcrew - it wasn't a permanent home to any squadrons during the battle.

The German FJ plan seems quite bizarre with such widely scattered drops. If they just wanted to capture Lympne a concentrated drop near the target would seem the best bet.

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Re: Intended FJ role in Sealion

Post by phylo_roadking » 03 Jul 2009 21:25

The German FJ plan seems quite bizarre with such widely scattered drops. If they just wanted to capture Lympne a concentrated drop near the target would seem the best bet.
From the details have so far - it would appear without admitting their previous errors and calamities openly, the FJ were intent on ensuring NO repeat of the almost-disastrous events of Norway and Holland. However - this in turn meant such an overly-complicated plan just to capture as you note one auxiliary airfield...that it brought in a whole swathe of its own potential POFs! :lol:

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Re: Intended FJ role in Sealion

Post by phylo_roadking » 06 Jul 2009 00:13

Here are the relative positions of Lympne airfield and Hythe; as far as I can se, there's only about 4-5 miles max between the two -

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...and less than 4 miles to the coast :? ......

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Re: Intended FJ role in Sealion

Post by The_Enigma » 06 Jul 2009 00:33

Why not just let the invasion troops nab the place then? Why the elaborate plan for the paras; couldnt they be used, what seems more effective, and dropped to capture the canal right away?

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Re: Intended FJ role in Sealion

Post by phylo_roadking » 06 Jul 2009 00:33

...but HERE is a larger area view - with the relative positions of the Drop Zones marked - the four smaller circles to the north and east of Lympne-Hythe...

Image

The large urban area to the right of the picture is Folkestone! 8O

Now - the two DZs furthest to the east are the First Wave drop zones, the two closest to Lympne are the Secvond Wave. To ME that looks as if the Meindl's and Brauer's troops need to hike ten miles across country to rendezvous with the Second Wave....before the both of them move to surround the airfield....that would indicate a delay of AT LEAST two hours after dawn before the two waves combine, more if there are difficulties crossing country, and more if the Stenzler's second wave is in ANY way delayed!

Meanwhile - Folkestone is was one of the relatively-heavily defended ports in the Coastal Crust, so as well as local forces, and those around Etchinghill and Hythe - troops from Folkestone have the ability to hinder or prevent the First Wave's move to the west to rendezvous.

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Re: Intended FJ role in Sealion

Post by phylo_roadking » 06 Jul 2009 00:37

Why the elaborate plan for the paras; couldnt they be used, what seems more effective, and dropped to capture the canal right away?
T-E, I can only say that that wasn't the FJ's way, to use the paratroops to secure ground objectives for any length of time; THEY were the assault troops - it was the more heavily-armed and better-supplied 22nd Airlanding Division, landing on the captured airfield and ideally able to land their full supplies, guns, motorcycle combos etc. direct from Ju52s, that would move on and hold he Royal Canal. That's the division (sic) in responsibilities that they planned to have in Holland, Crete etc. - but circumstances forced the paratroopers to play a greater role for longer.

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Re: Intended FJ role in Sealion

Post by The_Enigma » 06 Jul 2009 00:47

phylo_roadking wrote:
Why the elaborate plan for the paras; couldnt they be used, what seems more effective, and dropped to capture the canal right away?
T-E, I can only say that that wasn't the FJ's way, to use the paratroops to secure ground objectives for any length of time; THEY were the assault troops - it was the more heavily-armed and better-supplied 22nd Airlanding Division, landing on the captured airfield and ideally able to land their full supplies, guns, motorcycle combos etc. direct from Ju52s, that would move on and hold he Royal Canal. That's the division (sic) in responsibilities that they planned to have in Holland, Crete etc. - but circumstances forced the paratroopers to play a greater role for longer.
Well that make sense. :)
Now - the two DZs furthest to the east are the First Wave drop zones, the two closest to Lympne are the Secvond Wave. To ME that looks as if the Meindl's and Brauer's troops need to hike ten miles across country to rendezvous with the Second Wave....before the both of them move to surround the airfield....that would indicate a delay of AT LEAST two hours after dawn before the two waves combine, more if there are difficulties crossing country, and more if the Stenzler's second wave is in ANY way delayed!
All i can picture is Arnhem .... and Gene Hackman distrust of such a far distance to travel in a bridge to far. :D

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Re: Intended FJ role in Sealion

Post by phylo_roadking » 06 Jul 2009 00:53

Tine for a decent map I think - GoogleEarth has it's limitations. But from what I CAN see there, there seems to have been a line of hills separating the two elements of the FIRST wave at least, let alone any other period obstacles on their route west!

Obviously - given the time it would take or the Ju52s to return to France, reload and possibly refuel - the FJ's planners intended the First Wave to have covered most if not all of that ten miles, so that the Second Wave was dropping "just ahead" of them - or right on top of them! :wink:

As a plan it reads good - BUT brings in even more timing complications!

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Re: Intended FJ role in Sealion

Post by The_Enigma » 06 Jul 2009 01:05

you can make a few adjustments to google earth to display hills, thenadjust the cam to get something like a 45 degree angle - you can get a decent look at the terrain like that if you cannot find a map for the momment. I would be more helpful but i dont have the programme on my new computer.

I have only ever really looked at the major Allied airborne ops; Market Garden comes to mind quite allot. The plan came under a lot of critaism post war due to the drop zones of the divisions taking part being too far from the objective and the multiple drops etc. This one seems much more complicated.

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Re: Intended FJ role in Sealion

Post by phylo_roadking » 06 Jul 2009 14:03

so that the Second Wave was dropping "just ahead" of them - or right on top of them!
I wonder - there's nothing I can find on this - but given the likely delay of a few hours between the First and Second Waves...was it part of the plan for Meindl/Brauer to secure the Second Wave dropping zones???

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Re: Intended FJ role in Sealion

Post by The_Enigma » 06 Jul 2009 15:11

Where the drops to be done during the day or at night?
Also wouldnt the element of surprise be given away by this plan?

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Re: Intended FJ role in Sealion

Post by phylo_roadking » 06 Jul 2009 15:18

The First Wave was to drop two minutes after sunrise on X-Day; this means the Second Wave, the Third Wave glider attack, and everything done on the ground would be in daylight 8O

EDIT: also, given the amount of attention the RAF was giving to invasion barges and photo recce, the CROMWELL warning would have gone out at the first sign of any part of the three invasion streams leaving harbour, anything up to 48 hours before 8O So it's not as if anyone with a station to stand-to in the event of CROMWELL would be in their beds anyway...

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Re: Intended FJ role in Sealion

Post by The_Enigma » 06 Jul 2009 15:52

So they would be dropping with surprise already lost agaisnt troops already fully alerted - wouldnt the plan fall apart when the RAF put everything up to intercept them once they realised what was going on?

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Re: Intended FJ role in Sealion

Post by phylo_roadking » 06 Jul 2009 16:12

Well...the RAF would be busy generally LOL But as I said up the thread - the second and third waves would have to fly through whatever hair-and-fur was flying over the Channel and the coast of Kent by 2-3 hours after sunrise, and on through the morning 8O

By the way - Lympne wasn't empty of fighters :wink: It may not have had a Fighter Command squadron...but No.26 (Army Cooperation) Sqn were based there, working-up on Tomahawks!!! :D

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