Joachim Peiper's tactics

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NoxNoctum
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Joachim Peiper's tactics

Post by NoxNoctum » 09 Sep 2009 07:46

I'm currently playing through a Combat Mission operation where you're in control of Peiper's forces during a lot of his major skirmishes in '43 on the Eastern front.

I'd like to play it as realistically as possible and would like some insight into what he did with his mechanized forces that was so revolutionary. More detail the better.

Thanks guys.
Last edited by Marcus on 25 Jan 2014 15:22, edited 2 times in total.
Reason: Title changed from "Peiper's SPW tactics on the Eastern Front" as the discussions also cover the west.

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Harro
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Re: Peiper's SPW tactics on the Eastern Front

Post by Harro » 09 Sep 2009 08:37

Just burn down some villages and make no prisoners. That's as close as you can get to his Eastern Front tactics.

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Re: Peiper's SPW tactics on the Eastern Front

Post by Ypenburg » 09 Sep 2009 17:23

Harro wrote:Just burn down some villages and make no prisoners. That's as close as you can get to his Eastern Front tactics.
Yep, that would destroy the Russian tanks and PAK for sure :roll:

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Harro
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Re: Peiper's SPW tactics on the Eastern Front

Post by Harro » 09 Sep 2009 18:30

Are we talking early 1943 (SPW commander Peiper) or late 1943 (tank commander Peiper)? The latter would simply mean bashing your tanks head first into enemy positions ans destroy your battalion as quickly as possible: that's the Peiper way to do it.

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Re: Peiper's SPW tactics on the Eastern Front

Post by NoxNoctum » 10 Sep 2009 02:47

Harro wrote:Are we talking early 1943 (SPW commander Peiper) or late 1943 (tank commander Peiper)? The latter would simply mean bashing your tanks head first into enemy positions ans destroy your battalion as quickly as possible: that's the Peiper way to do it.
SPW commander Peiper is what I'm interested in. (so early 1943)

der Fleißige
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Re: Peiper's SPW tactics on the Eastern Front

Post by der Fleißige » 10 Sep 2009 08:36

You're probably doing it right if you're following Harro's first answer :D
Harro wrote:Just burn down some villages and make no prisoners. That's as close as you can get to his Eastern Front tactics.
or you could do a web search for "Peiper" and "1943" :lol:

Here's something a bit more:
http://www.ww2f.com/russia-war/13553-pe ... 943-a.html
if server is off-line:
http://74.125.77.132/search?q=cache:PKx ... 1943-a.htm

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Re: Peiper's SPW tactics on the Eastern Front

Post by Harro » 10 Sep 2009 09:04

http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=116977
Harro wrote:Off course. Several commanders of other LSSAH battalions clearly stated after the war that Peiper used to burn down complete villages:

"Im Osten wussten wir immer, wo Peiper war. Dort brannte es." ("In the East we always knew where Peiper was. There it was on fire").

Just look at his award documents. The descriptions of the heroic actions of his SPW-battalion: 800-900 Russian soldiers killed - no prisoners, 1450 Russian soldiers killed - no prisoners, 930 Russian soldiers killed, no prisoners. A ratio of 3280 killed enemies and three captured in not normal.
Harro wrote:Inflated figures you say? It is not about the height of the figures. You totally missed the point. It is about the fact that the SS didn't even hide the fact that they made no prisoners. I'm actually quite tired of these discussions simply because people don't want to believe that Peiper was involved in dirty warcrimes. The claim isn't "vague" because it is exactly what they were talking about: warcrimes. Understandable warcrimes because the war in the East was a Rattenkrieg - a war that was unimaginately dirty. And from both sides - German and Russian. I can understand why they did it but that does not mean I approve. An understandable warcrime is still a warcrime. Burning down those villages was standard procedure. For Peiper and for Panzermeyer. Every LSSAH veteran - officer, nco or lower ranks - knows that but I won't give you their names. Peipers men modified their blowtorches into a sort of mini-flame throwers. Fact. Ideal for setting buildings on fire. The famous Peiper tactics: Dort brannte es. Burn everything to the ground. Delibrately. Veterans make no secret of that. Overrun the enemy. Spread fear. Burn down everything. Peiper in his SPW-period was a master of fighting in the dark. You won't find that info in the books written by Agte, Williamson, or any of the other authors who portray Peiper as a shining knight. The hero Peiper. Created by the SS press office first and the HIAG later. People love their stories because they want to hear about Peiper the master tactician. The daredevil. They don't want to read about all the people in the LSSAH who disliked him, or how Peiper burned his Panzer-Regiment to the ground in a few days to be replaced by Kühlmann, or about his time as adjutant of his godfather Himmler. And they certainly don't want to believe that Peiper described - icecold - how he watched throught the window of the gaschamber as they killed T4 victims. Peiper, who said about himself in a 70's interview: "I was a nazi and I will always be one".

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Re: Peiper's SPW tactics on the Eastern Front

Post by j keenan » 10 Sep 2009 17:59

Jens Westemeier's book Joachim Peiper
a biography of himmler's ss comander by Schiffer
is the best one out there in my opion!!
Best Jamie

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Re: Peiper's SPW tactics on the Eastern Front

Post by Streckenbach » 10 Sep 2009 18:34

Here I am again,sorry to bother,
Peiper never would have said "I am a Nazi" if he would say something like it ,it would be " I am a Nationalsozialist"
This is one point,the other point is the german saying " Where he was,it was burning"(da brannte es) it dos´t mean
allways Brennen,burnig, but there was Hell ,Trouble or Fight,(es war was los) whatever it was.
Peiper himself he never had the autority to do what him plaesed.he was a FAMOUS OFICER,BUT RELATIVLY LOW IN RANK.
Streckenbach

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Re: Peiper's SPW tactics on the Eastern Front

Post by Rob - wssob2 » 11 Sep 2009 05:11

Poor NoxNoctum - he's itching to play his Combat Mission module and I'm afraid we're not giving him much help! :P

Nox - it sounds like you wanted an answer such as "Put a Sdkfz 251/3 as Peiper's command vehicle in the lead, flanked by a 251/9 and a 251/16 flammpanzerwagen on each side, with twelve 251/1s carrying two companies worth of grenadiers/assault engineers and a 251/2 with a 82mm mortar bringing up the rear. Use your Sdkfz 222's and platoon of motorcycle troops as a recon screen."

There. Is that what Peiper did? I have no idea. You'll probably have to dig through the multivolume Leibstandarte series to see if you can dig up one of his TOEs, but you'd be better off taking what troops and AFVs the game gives you and doing a "Hey diddle diddle straight up the middle" assault. That pretty much sums up W-SS kampfgruppe offensive tactics in a nutshell as Harro, our resident expert on the LSSAH recon detachment can (and has) told you.

Streckenbach, you wrote,
Peiper never would have said "I am a Nazi" if he would say something like it ,it would be " I am a Nationalsozialist"
In an interview with a French journalist prior to his 1976 murder, Peiper commented "I was a Nazi and I remain one...The Germany of today is no longer a great nation, it has become a province of Europe." It's a quote that I believe has made it into Michael Reynold's biography of Peiper, as well as the magazine After the Battle's account of his death. I can try to dig up the quote and the footnote if you'd like.
This is one point,the other point is the german saying " Where he was,it was burning"(da brannte es) it dos´t mean allways Brennen,burnig, but there was Hell ,Trouble or Fight,(es war was los) whatever it was.
Whatever the exact word in German, most accounts of Peiper (positive and negative) mention that his battalion's unofficial nickname circa 1943 was "The Blowtorch Battalion," which all sides seem to agree reflected his unit's propensity for destruction. They were good at burning things up. (Probably good at blowing them up too.) There's most likely a grain of truth in the "positive" connotations of that phrase (burning up Soviet tanks, equipment, enemy-held villages) and the "negative" ones as well (burning up surrendering Soviet POWS, civilians etc. in the aforementioned enemy-held villages.) It's IMO a silly argument to get into, although it would be interesting to trace the first usage of the phrase. It's quite possible it first was used in a Das Schwarze Korps article!
Peiper himself he never had the autority to do what him plaesed.he was a FAMOUS OFICER,BUT RELATIVLY LOW IN RANK.
Of the tens of thousand-odd Heer and W-SS colonels in service during WWII, how many had the honor of sitting for a color photo portrait taken by Hitler's personal photographer, Heinrich Hoffmann?

Of the 1,000-odd Colonels in SS service during the IIIR, how many had the honor of serving as Himmler's personal adjutant not once, but twice?

Of the dozen-dd Colonels who served as an adjutant to Himmler, how many had the honor of marrying one of Himmler's personal secretaries, "Sigi" Hinrichsen?

Peiper may have been "relatively" (?) low in rank, but he was certainly in the deepest circles of the Hitler regime.

- R

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Re: Peiper's SPW tactics on the Eastern Front

Post by Rob - wssob2 » 11 Sep 2009 05:28

Here's a reference for you, Nox:

James W. Weingartner's Crossroads of Death: The Story of the Malmedy Massacre and Trial, p.17: W-SS tactical doctrine emphasized massive fire from all directions and constant movement. See Die an der Panzergrenadierschule der Waffen-SS Vorhandenen Erfahrungen der Kampfweise des Russischen Gegners und ihre Auswertung zur Ausbildung, US NARA, Foreign Military Studies Section, Collection D-154, p.4-5,7

Good luck digging up the source. Hope you live near College Park, MD! :P

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Re: Peiper's SPW tactics on the Eastern Front

Post by Harro » 11 Sep 2009 08:18

Hello Rob! You could add: of the dozen-dd Colonels who served as an adjutant to Himmler, how many were the Reichsheinis favourite pet soldier and was a close friend of many high ranking SS and party officials? We know, it was Peiper :)

Streckenbach, regarding "dort brannte es": this comment was specifically made by Leibstandarte officers who did not agree with the warfare conducted by Meyer and Peiper. It is a comment about burning down villages. Nothing more, nothing less. Same with the "I was a nazi" comment: in this forum Peiper fanboys went through all sorts of excuses to "explain" what Peiper supposedly meant when he told a Belgian journalist that he was a nazi and will always remain one (Whitings book).

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Re: Peiper's SPW tactics on the Eastern Front

Post by NoxNoctum » 11 Sep 2009 15:51

Rob - wssob2 wrote:Poor NoxNoctum - he's itching to play his Combat Mission module and I'm afraid we're not giving him much help! :P

Nox - it sounds like you wanted an answer such as "Put a Sdkfz 251/3 as Peiper's command vehicle in the lead, flanked by a 251/9 and a 251/16 flammpanzerwagen on each side, with twelve 251/1s carrying two companies worth of grenadiers/assault engineers and a 251/2 with a 82mm mortar bringing up the rear. Use your Sdkfz 222's and platoon of motorcycle troops as a recon screen."


- R
Yes that's what I was hoping for but I guess I'll have to settle for "be aggressive" :oops:

What about Hyazinth Graf Strachwitz von Gross-Zauche und Camminetz "Panzer Count". Is there available information on his armored tatctics?

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Re: Peiper's SPW tactics on the Eastern Front

Post by Harro » 11 Sep 2009 19:30

Peiper wrote a lengthly paper about Eastern Front warfare while he was in American captivity. Must be available somewere, I've once red it but don't have a copy at the moment.

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Re: Peiper's SPW tactics on the Eastern Front

Post by Streckenbach » 11 Sep 2009 20:40

Hello ,
I still do´t believe it and I really can´t understand why you are blaming Peiper for all this,What about Woelfchen,he was also Himmlers Pet,as you name it."Verbrannte Erde "was surely not Peipers Idea.I don´t think a Nazi as you say it,would ever use the term "NAZI" this must be the own interpretation by this belgium journalist.Sure we used the term "dort brennt es" not meanig brennen,but "da ist was los" there is something going on.But on the other hand,what would you do
if you get shot from partisans hiding in a Village.If he was involved in any warcrime,the americans they would have hang
him on the malmedy trial,but due to a honest Counsel Major Everett,who was digging the truth out the were freed 195?
Later on the french communist killed him in cold blood."Very brave "people.I was Standartenfuehrer like Peiper,much older,but I or we,allways admired him.That Hoffmann toke pictures about Hitler and him together,this was quite normal
with such high decorated Soldiers.There are a lot of Fotos of this kind,unfurtunatly not with me,because I was given only the German Cross in Gold.What about Skorzeny,Prien,Wolf ,Rudel,all the Fieldmarshalles etc. ?They all are pets of Hitler or Himmler?

Let me quote from a telex letter fron Gen.fieldmarshal v. Manstein to the 3.SS- Panzer-Div. Totenkopf, 15.11,43

Bravo SS -Totenkopf! Ihr seid Mordskerle
gez. v. Manstein
Ich habe diesem Befehl nichts hinzuzufuegen


me neither,because it speaks for it self
Streckenbach

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