Joachim Peiper's tactics

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sandeepmukherjee196
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Re: Joachim Peiper's tactics

#406

Post by sandeepmukherjee196 » 14 Oct 2016, 17:13

Miles Krogfus wrote:Herbert Kuhlmann, who led the 1 SS Division's independent Panther unit in the late fall 1943 to early 1944, also graduated in January 1936 from SS-Fuhrerschule Braunschweig with 32nd in class ranking compared to Peiper's 16th. Kuhlmann "2. In der Taktik genugende" (satisfactory), Peiper "ziemlich gute" (quite good). As well in that January, Max Wunsche graduated from SS-Fuhrerschule Tolz with "2. In der Taktik gute" (good). Thus Peiper as a student was rated better in tactics then both these fellow 1 SS divisional unit CO's.
This is indeed an extremely relevant and interesting piece of information. I think Jochen Peiper's tactical prowess and combat effectiveness have never been in serious doubt. The only issue may be with his relative strengths as a panzer commander vs leader of a pz grenadier unit.

Cheers
Sandeep

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Harro
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Re: Joachim Peiper's tactics

#407

Post by Harro » 17 Oct 2016, 19:57

Miles Krogfus wrote:Herbert Kuhlmann, who led the 1. SS-Division's independent Panther unit in the late fall 1943 to early 1944, also graduated in January 1936 from SS-Führerschule Braunschweig with 32nd in class ranking compared to Peiper's 16th. Kuhlmann "2. In der Taktik genügende" (satisfactory), Peiper "ziemlich gute" (quite good). As well in that January, Max Wünsche graduated from SS-Führerschule Tölz with "2. In der Taktik gute" (good). Thus Peiper as a student was rated better in tactics then both these fellow 1. SS divisional unit CO's.
I fail to see the relevance of this information. In 1936 the tank formations of the Waffen-SS were non-existent so whatever broad interpretation one could give to the tactical education the SS-Junkers received at the pre-war Junkerschule, it certainly wasn't focused on tank warfare and tells us very little about their tank leading skills. It is well established that Peiper was an excellent SPW-leader but that did not make him a proper tank leader.

Also, translating "ziemlich gute" as "quite good" is incorrect. It means "almost good" which ranked Peiper between Kuhlmann and Wünsche.


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Re: Joachim Peiper's tactics

#408

Post by Miles Krogfus » 17 Oct 2016, 21:24

"Ziemlich" used as an adverb means "quite" and "fairly" so what makes sense in SS school rankings is that, as Harro states, it could be not quite as good as "gute". Regardless, 1. SS-Division documents show that Kuhlmann led an INDEPENDENT unit. 1. SS Panther tactics late 1943 to early 1944 would largely be his responsibility. The Panther status reports quoted in the "Joachim Peiper's tactics" thread do not pertain most directly to him but to Kuhlmann and blunders leading to such things as any "turkey shoots" these Panthers suffered.

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Harro
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Re: Joachim Peiper's tactics

#409

Post by Harro » 17 Oct 2016, 22:54

Could you cite the "1 SS Division documents" you're referring to?

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Re: Joachim Peiper's tactics

#410

Post by Miles Krogfus » 18 Oct 2016, 20:21

I am currently reading over my material and that of others concerning 1 SS Panther activity in the East and Normandy. I will later refer to primary data I have if I post here about 1 SS combats. Kuhlmann's DK in Gold and RK recommendation documents are informative.

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Re: Peiper's SPW tactics on the Eastern Front

#411

Post by jacobstuart » 04 Feb 2018, 10:35

j keenan wrote:Jens Westemeier's book Joachim Peiper
a biography of himmler's ss comander by Schiffer
is the best one out there in my opion!!
Best Jamie
harro:
Westemeier wrote in A Biography of Himmler SS Commander: On December 10, 1943, Peiper's style of command hit rock bottom, directly under the eyes of his patron and Leibstandarte commander Teddy Wisch. In the Radomyschl region, advancing in the general direction of the south, after crossing a ridge, Peiper's armoured group faced a Soviet defensive position. Without taking care of the tactical situation and the strength of the defensive fire Peiper pushed his forces forward. Observing the "turkey shooting" of his own troops, the Division commander stopped the attack. Several hours later the headstrong Peiper attempted a frontal attack again. Moving forward, at once his troopers were under heavy fire. Burning and exploding armored vehicles and tanks lay crippled on the plain. Again, a furious division commander had to stop the attack and ordered Peiper back. Deeply disappointed about the qualities of his friend Peiper, he left the scene. Arriving at the divisional command post, Wisch issued an order on the correct tactical use of armed forces!
According to NARA T314 R1173 pp. 157, 177, 209 and 253.
In 19:00, 9. Dec 1943, SS-1. Panzer Regiment reported 176 tanks under all kinds of conditions (serviceable, maintenance or marching).
In 17:45, 10. Dec, reported 176 tanks under all conditions.
In 18:00, 12. Dec, reported 172 tanks under all conditions. (4 tanks total lost within 48 hrs.)
In 18:00, 15. Dec, reported 169 tanks under all conditions. (3 tanks total lost within 72 hrs.)

2 tanks total lost per day, so-called "turkey shooting".

Jens Westemeier is full of lies feeding his bias only.

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Cult Icon
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Re: Joachim Peiper's tactics

#412

Post by Cult Icon » 04 Feb 2018, 17:01

http://peiper.reibert.info/articles/Beg ... Peiper.pdf
opinions on this master's thesis on Peiper?

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Re: Peiper's SPW tactics on the Eastern Front

#413

Post by Michael Kenny » 04 Feb 2018, 17:41

jacobstuart wrote:


According to NARA T314 R1173 pp. 157, 177, 209 and 253.
In 19:00, 9. Dec 1943, SS-1. Panzer Regiment reported 176 tanks under all kinds of conditions (serviceable, maintenance or marching).
In 17:45, 10. Dec, reported 176 tanks under all conditions.
In 18:00, 12. Dec, reported 172 tanks under all conditions. (4 tanks total lost within 48 hrs.)
In 18:00, 15. Dec, reported 169 tanks under all conditions. (3 tanks total lost within 72 hrs.)

2 tanks total lost per day, so-called "turkey shooting".
Could you please give the full report. How many fit, how many in repair and how many in long-term repair. Having a total of say 200 tanks on the books 'could' be correct even if 125 are in workshops.

Sid Guttridge
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Re: Joachim Peiper's tactics

#414

Post by Sid Guttridge » 04 Feb 2018, 18:44

Hi Cult Icon,

Looks as though the author has bought the BS about the W-SS and Peiper personally, hook line and sinker!

This can't possibly be for a Master's Thesis. It has no footnoting, no primary research and a short, non-academic, bibliography that even includes a title by Rupert Butler, God Help Us!

The author claims the W-SS officer corps had the following principles not shared by the Army:

1. Enforce loyalty and obedience and be self obedient.
2. Earn respect from subordinates, based on equality between all ranks.
3. Lead with a high ‘internal’ code of honor.
4. Be willing to sacrifice one’s own life.

Does anyone believe that the German Army was led by men who did not enforce loyalty and obedience and were not obedient themselves, did not work to earn respect from subordinates, did not lead with a high ‘internal’ code of honour, and who were unwilling to sacrifice their own lives if necessary?

Was there perhaps some limitation in the W-SS officer corps that meant what was taken for granted in the German Army officer corps had to be spelled out explicitly for their W-SS equivalents?

The author also asserts that W-SS officers had a higher casualty rate than their Army equivalents. Leaving aside for the moment whether a higher casualty rate is desirable in itself or representative of quality, is it true? It certainly doesn't seem to be true of the Waffen-SS as a whole compared with equivalent Army combat units, but is it true specifically of their officers when compared with their direct Army equivalents?

We surely have enough authors of W-SS officer lists present on this forum to answer that question?

Cheers,

Sid.
Last edited by Sid Guttridge on 04 Feb 2018, 19:01, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Joachim Peiper's tactics

#415

Post by Sid Guttridge » 04 Feb 2018, 18:53

Hi jacobstuart,

Lies? Trump-speak is OK for a mere US President, but we demand higher standards here.

On what grounds do you say "Lies" rather than "mistaken", "in error", etc, etc,?

Cheers,

Sid

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Sheldrake
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Re: Joachim Peiper's tactics

#416

Post by Sheldrake » 04 Feb 2018, 20:45

Sid Guttridge wrote:Hi Cult Icon,

Looks as though the author has bought the BS about the W-SS and Peiper personally, hook line and sinker!

This can't possibly be for a Master's Thesis. It has no footnoting, no primary research and a short, non-academic, bibliography that even includes a title by Rupert Butler, God Help Us!

The author claims the W-SS officer corps had the following principles not shared by the Army:

1. Enforce loyalty and obedience and be self obedient.
2. Earn respect from subordinates, based on equality between all ranks.
3. Lead with a high ‘internal’ code of honor.
4. Be willing to sacrifice one’s own life.

Does anyone believe that the German Army was led by men who did not enforce loyalty and obedience and were not obedient themselves, did not work to earn respect from subordinates, did not lead with a high ‘internal’ code of honour, and who were unwilling to sacrifice their own lives if necessary?

Was there perhaps some limitation in the W-SS officer corps that meant what was taken for granted in the German Army officer corps had to be spelled out explicitly for their W-SS equivalents?

The author also asserts that W-SS officers had a higher casualty rate than their Army equivalents. Leaving aside for the moment whether a higher casualty rate is desirable in itself or representative of quality, is it true? It certainly doesn't seem to be true of the Waffen-SS as a whole compared with equivalent Army combat units, but is it true specifically of their officers when compared with their direct Army equivalents?

We surely have enough authors of W-SS officer lists present on this forum to answer that question?

Cheers,

Sid.
Sid,

It is a masters thesis a student paper presented in 2004 - you can find it on CARL http://cgsc.contentdm.oclc.org/cdm/sing ... /181/rec/2
Bouwmeester was a Dutch exchange student.

I don't think it is very good paper. There is quite a bit wrong with the history. Given that the author was holding up Peiper as an excellent commander, he seems to have ignored some critical points about Peipers tactical decisions.

#1 There is some evidence that the losses at Lossheimgraben were probably German anti tank mines rather American and Peiper also seems to have bulldozed Heer artillery transport off the road in his impatience.

#2 The author has ignored the massacre at Liegneville. The crew of the broken down Sherman and the recovery vehicle with them were executed after digging their own graves - possible in sight of where Peiper was entertaining his divisional commander in one of the better restaurants in the ardennes.

#3 There is an unexplained halt between the action at Liegneville (late afternoon 17th) and the attack on Stavalot - first light 18th Dec less than 10 km away. KG Peiper seems to have been stationary for much of the night 17-18th Dec, held up by a section of American engineers. They could see the headlights of American vehicles in the valley. This was the key moment in the battle. Had Peiper pressed on overnight it is possible he would have reached much further than he did - possible as far as the Meuse. At the critical moment Peiper seems to have been having supper with his boss. Not quite the single minded pursuit of the aim.

Peiper does not bear comparison with Rommel as a tactical commander. He was one of a number of competent SS tactical commanders.

Commanding a regiment at 29 was young, but not particularly so. He was born the same year as Brigadier Michael Carver, who had commanded the British 4th Armoured Brigade since June 1944. At the same age Bernard Freyburg had already commanded brigades in battle for over a year.
Last edited by Sheldrake on 04 Feb 2018, 23:25, edited 2 times in total.

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Harro
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Re: Joachim Peiper's tactics

#417

Post by Harro » 04 Feb 2018, 22:04

Sheldrake wrote:#3 There is an unexplained hald between the action at Liegneville (late afternoon 17th) and the attack on Staumont - first light 18th Dec lerss than 10 km away. KG Peiper seems to have been stationary for much of the night 17-18th Dec, held up by a section of American engineers. They could see the headlights of American vehicles in the valley. This was the key moment in the battle. Had Peiper pressed on overnight it is possible he would have reached much further than he did - possible as far as the Meuse.
I think you mean Stavelot :wink:

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Sheldrake
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Re: Joachim Peiper's tactics

#418

Post by Sheldrake » 04 Feb 2018, 23:21

Harro wrote:
Sheldrake wrote:#3 There is an unexplained hald between the action at Liegneville (late afternoon 17th) and the attack on Staumont - first light 18th Dec lerss than 10 km away. KG Peiper seems to have been stationary for much of the night 17-18th Dec, held up by a section of American engineers. They could see the headlights of American vehicles in the valley. This was the key moment in the battle. Had Peiper pressed on overnight it is possible he would have reached much further than he did - possible as far as the Meuse.
I think you mean Stavelot :wink:

Yes - sorry

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sitalkes
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Re: Joachim Peiper's tactics

#419

Post by sitalkes » 05 Feb 2018, 02:48

The tanks ran out of fuel in Stavelot, perhaps that was the unexplained halt - waiting for fuel?

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Re: Joachim Peiper's tactics

#420

Post by Cult Icon » 05 Feb 2018, 03:08

the immediate issue with the thesis is that it focuses too much on BOB and not enough on EF 1943-1945, and Normandy 1944.

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