Joachim Peiper's tactics

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Sid Guttridge
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Re: Joachim Peiper's tactics

#436

Post by Sid Guttridge » 19 Feb 2018, 16:05

Hi Jacobstuart,

You are consistently avoiding answering my question, so I repeat it again:

Lies? Trump-speak is OK for a mere US President, but we demand higher standards here.

On what grounds do you say "Lies" rather than "mistaken", "in error", etc, etc,?

You are making a serious character attack. You must either put up, shut up or moderate your accusation. Which is it?

Cheers,

Sid

Sid Guttridge
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Re: Joachim Peiper's tactics

#437

Post by Sid Guttridge » 24 Feb 2018, 13:22

.....and answer came there none!


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Re: Joachim Peiper's tactics

#438

Post by Cult Icon » 25 Jun 2018, 19:18

Sheldrake wrote:Regardless of what its own officers thought, Geyr v Schweppenberg thought it the worst readiness before D day, claiming it had been bled white of talent and left with a ill disciplined NCO corps. The LAH did not seem to have distinguished itself in Normandy, or at least it did not come to as much notice as as a troublesome opponent as the 9, 10 or 12SS whose stubborn actions frustrated various Anglo Canadian operations. Sure they added firepower of Bourgebus ridge at the end of Op Goodood, but a battlegroup was turfed out of one village by a British battlegroup.
From the beginning of 1944:

With SSLAH, after Operation 'Watutin' (and playing a major role - reporting the 2nd most tank kills after Heavy Panzer-Regiment Bäke) they were finally written down to "KG" during the battle for the Korsun pocket and assigned secondary roles, which depleted them still. Afterwards, the soviet gains developed into an encirclement battle for the destruction of the 1st Panzer Army, of which the 1. LSSAH had almost empty combat elements and with its vehicle fleet effectively disabled (iirc 2,800 labeled as disabled).

Then reconstitution of the effectively "new" LSSAH in the spring, no longer as valuable of a unit as its sister unit 12. SS or what it used to be- but it got refilled again, save for motor vehicles.
Last edited by Cult Icon on 26 Jun 2018, 01:15, edited 1 time in total.

jacobstuart
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Re: Joachim Peiper's tactics

#439

Post by jacobstuart » 26 Jun 2018, 00:56

Sid Guttridge wrote:.....and answer came there none!
He Makes up stories.

take this first.
Harro wrote:
j keenan wrote:Where was Peiper ?
He seems to disappear around 20.12.43 then reappears 7.1.44 -16.1.44 leading Kampfgruppe Peiper which resulted in him been awarded the OL for his valiant and prudent leadership !
Westemeier wrote: On December 10, 1943, Peiper's style of command hit rock bottom, directly under the eyes of his patron and Leibstandarte commander Teddy Wisch. In the Radomyschl region, advancing in the general direction of the south, after crossing a ridge, Peiper's armoured group faced a Soviet defensive position. Without taking care of the tactical situation and the strength of the defensive fire Peiper pushed his forces forward. Observing the "turkey shooting" of his own troops, the Division commander stopped the attack. Several hours later the headstrong Peiper attempted a frontal attack again. Moving forward, at once his troopers were under heavy fire. Burning and exploding armored vehicles and tanks lay crippled on the plain. Again, a furious division commander had to stop the attack and ordered Peiper back. Deeply disappointed about the qualities of his friend Peiper, he left the scene. Arriving at the divisional command post, Wisch issued an order on the correct tactical use of armed forces!

On December 14, 1943, the Leibstandarte reached the Federovka - Verin line. There, Peiper received the order to assemble with his last remnants in the Sabolot-Lyakhovaya area. While not even a dozen Panzer were operational. Peiper was ordered back to the divisional staff. A silent dismissal from his command? By December 22, SS-Sturmbannführer Herbert Kuhlmann took over."
meantime,
20 December 1922. SS-Unterscharfuehrer Hans Oeser wrote: on the other side of embankment, outside Chepovitshi, we noticed a lively vehicular traffic. When it got a little lighter we saw that the train with the T34’s had been unloaded and the tanks were being refueled and taking on ammunition between the houses. At that moment Peiper came up behind the railway embankment in the command panzer with a Mk IV and asked what was going on. I said we were going to take on the T-34’s. and he enquired, ‘What ammunition have you got?’
‘Another five or six rounds.’
‘Good, I’ll give you mine from my panzer,’ he said, and gave me seven panzer shells. ‘Take care! Three assault guns are coming up from the south-west to support you. Make sure you don’t fire on me!’
Peiper drove off and we got into a firing position.

See Hans Oeser tape recording on 10 dec 1997 on Agte, Jochen Peiper, p. 264.
8.1.1944:
At 05.15 hrs, 35-40 enemy tanks with infantries mounted on them crossed our battle line at the seam between ss-pz gren rgt 1 and 2. In rgt 1’s area, they pushed as far as the ravines north of Stepok; in the III./2’s area they broke through into Sherebki. At that point, the concentrated fire from Pz Artillerie Rgt 1 halted their advance, and the valiant commander of ss pz rgt 1, Sturmbannfuehrer Peiper, led the armoured force in a pincer attack in cooperation with panzerzerstoerer-Battalion 473. The attacking force was destroyed.

See Lehmann, LAH III, p. 394. correspond with Dr Thomas Fischer, The SS-Panzer-Artillery Regiment 1, p. 155.
13.1.1944:Oberst von Kuensberg, wrote to the author (Lehmann) as follows: “my good friend Peiper sent two Tigers into my sector, where Untersturmfuehrer Wittman destroyed countless enemy tanks and the other Tiger gunner about twenty during that Russian attack. Wittmann did, however, suffer a broken front tooth on the edge of his turret. I was extremely pleased with willing and selfless cooperation among our commanders.”
See Lehmann, pp. 400-401.
14 January, 1944. SS-Sturmmann Walter Lau remembered the day Wittmmann was awarded the Knight’s Cross: “We came from back from the front that day with four or five Tigers under the command of Untersturmfuehrer Wittamann and parked them on the village street. Suddenly we were ordered to assemble on the villiage square (…) We were standing in a loose semi-circle when an all-wheel-drive car flying the division standard pulled up on the other side of the square. It was our division commander, Oberfuehrer Teddy Wisch. I was at the edge of the semi-circle and Wittmann instructed me to go fetch the regimental commander, Sturmbannfuehrer Peiper, whose command post was in a Russian house about one hundred meters away. I reported smartly to the Sturmbannfuehrer that the division commander had arrived and that he might drive to the village square in his VW all-terrain car.”
See Agte, Michael Wittmann Volume One, p. 233.

with that many of existent records that Westermeier has no way not to aware of, he simply tried to tell you that Jp was finished, he lost his authority of command over his rgt cus Tedd was disappointed to him. it's just a lie to cover up another lie ahead it. From the fictitious 'turkey shoot' to Wisch issued an order, which actually supported the tactics of speed JP tried to implement in the combat, not some sort of evidence proving Wisch was disappointed to Peiper. westermeier knows that too.

even a teenager reader can tell the difference between intentionally mislead a.k.a. lie and an error.


Yes, we demand higher standards here.

benwi
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Re: Joachim Peiper's tactics

#440

Post by benwi » 16 Aug 2018, 12:40

Sheldrake wrote:
04 Feb 2018, 20:45
#3 There is an unexplained halt between the action at Liegneville (late afternoon 17th) and the attack on Stavalot - first light 18th Dec less than 10 km away. KG Peiper seems to have been stationary for much of the night 17-18th Dec, held up by a section of American engineers. They could see the headlights of American vehicles in the valley. This was the key moment in the battle. Had Peiper pressed on overnight it is possible he would have reached much further than he did - possible as far as the Meuse. At the critical moment Peiper seems to have been having supper with his boss. Not quite the single minded pursuit of the aim.
Page 108 of the devils adjudant by michael reynolds gives you a much more realistic answer to that.The bridge was expected to be defended,everybody was dead tired;the battlegroup was strung out and so it was decided to wait which was sensible.And officers do need to eat and sleep.

Sid Guttridge
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Re: Joachim Peiper's tactics

#441

Post by Sid Guttridge » 17 Aug 2018, 08:11

Hi Jacobstuart,

Yes, we already know your opinion, but where is the evidence that any of what you allege is a lie?

Even your "teenage reader" would need some evidence. Where is it?

The mere fact that we may disagree with, or dislike, something, or that it is simply wrong, doesn't automatically make it a lie.

Cheers,

Sid.

Sid Guttridge
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Re: Joachim Peiper's tactics

#442

Post by Sid Guttridge » 17 Aug 2018, 08:14

Hi benwi,

It may have been understandable that they stopped to eat and rest but, if it cost a vital opportunity, it was hardly "sensible", was it?

Cheers,

Sid.

benwi
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Re: Joachim Peiper's tactics

#443

Post by benwi » 17 Aug 2018, 08:35

Sid Guttridge wrote:
17 Aug 2018, 08:14
Hi benwi,

It may have been understandable that they stopped to eat and rest but, if it cost a vital opportunity, it was hardly "sensible", was it?

Cheers,

Sid.
It was, as in the dark one cannot know what is on the other side.There was every reason to suspect the bridge would be defended so it was sensible to rest and wait for the rest of the battlegroup to move up.If the bridge had been defended and Peiper had gotten a bloody nose,he would have been accused of being reckless.
Military decisions have to be judged with the information the commander had,not with hindsight.

benwi
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Re: Joachim Peiper's tactics

#444

Post by benwi » 17 Aug 2018, 08:41

Sid Guttridge wrote:
17 Aug 2018, 08:11
Hi Jacobstuart,

Yes, we already know your opinion, but where is the evidence that any of what you allege is a lie?

Even your "teenage reader" would need some evidence. Where is it?

The mere fact that we may disagree with, or dislike, something, or that it is simply wrong, doesn't automatically make it a lie.

Cheers,

Sid.
I think his point is that statements were made which are inconsistent with the source material.

Sid Guttridge
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Re: Joachim Peiper's tactics

#445

Post by Sid Guttridge » 17 Aug 2018, 08:57

Hi benwi,

If so, he should (1) answer for himself and (2) explain why that is so with his evidence.

If (I emphasise "if") Westermeir is incorrect, there are a number of other possibilities than that he is telling a lie. He could be misinformed, partially briefed, lacking other evidence, etc., etc., or simply flat wrong. jacobstuart engages with none of these possibilities.

Accusing someone of telling a lie is a very serious charge. The person making it must either put up or shut up.

So far jacobstuart has failed to put up and it is therefore his reputation, not Westermeier's, that is currently on the line here.

Cheers,

Sid.

benwi
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Re: Joachim Peiper's tactics

#446

Post by benwi » 17 Aug 2018, 09:04

Sid Guttridge wrote:
17 Aug 2018, 08:57
Hi benwi,

If so, he should (1) answer for himself and (2) explain why that is so with his evidence.

If (I emphasise "if") Westermeir is incorrect, there are a number of other possibilities than that he is telling a lie. He could be misinformed, partially briefed, lacking other evidence, etc., etc., or simply flat wrong. jacobstuart engages with none of these possibilities.

Accusing someone of telling a lie is a very serious charge. The person making it must either put up or shut up.

So far jacobstuart has failed to put up and it is therefore his reputation, not Westermeier's, that is currently on the line here.

Cheers,

Sid.
Westermeier has certainly made statements which cannot be reconciled with the sources and everybody can make up his own mind why he did that.

Sid Guttridge
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Re: Joachim Peiper's tactics

#447

Post by Sid Guttridge » 17 Aug 2018, 09:06

Hi benwi,

Anyway you care to cut it, it still looks like a missed opportunity on Peiper's part.

Cheers,

Sid.

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Harro
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Re: Joachim Peiper's tactics

#448

Post by Harro » 17 Aug 2018, 09:10

Apart from that it is unclear what lies "Jacob Stuart" is referring to- what he tries to show us. He quotes something I cited from Westemeier concerning the events on December 10 and 14, 1943, by citing info about December 20, 1943, to January 14, 1944, from a bunch of HIAG approved sources to conclude that Westemeier is a liar. I guess he was triggered by Westemeier's remark about the possible silent dismissal of Peiper but in that case he clearly never actually read Westemeier's book.

Sid Guttridge
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Re: Joachim Peiper's tactics

#449

Post by Sid Guttridge » 17 Aug 2018, 09:17

Hi benwi,

You write, "Westermeier has certainly made statements which cannot be reconciled with sources....."

Does this necessarily make him a liar?

Could you also be more specific as to what statements you refer?

You write, ".....and everybody can make up his own mind" on the subject. Indeed, but jacobstuart is not simply making up his own mind, is he? He is making a public accusation that he has not yet backed up.

Cheers,

Sid

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Re: Joachim Peiper's tactics

#450

Post by Harro » 17 Aug 2018, 09:20

Sid Guttridge wrote:
17 Aug 2018, 09:06
Hi benwi,

Anyway you care to cut it, it still looks like a missed opportunity on Peiper's part.

Cheers,

Sid.
Exactly, apparently we are to believe that at THE crucial moment in the offensive the genius SS warrior decided that caution, food and rest were more important than his actual task.

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