Panzerjäger-Abteilung 200

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Bart V.
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Panzerjäger-Abteilung 200

Post by Bart V. » 16 Jul 2010 15:14

With which Tanks was Panzerjäger-Abteilung 200 equipped? As second question, does anyone know more information on Werner Klaucke's death or other?

Many thanks

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Re: Panzerjäger-Abteilung 200

Post by Christoph Awender » 16 Jul 2010 18:52

Hello

Pz.Jg.Abt. 200 had two companies with 7,5cm Pak on Hotchkiss chassis.

/Christoph

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Re: Panzerjäger-Abteilung 200

Post by Bart V. » 16 Jul 2010 20:59

Christoph Awender wrote:Hello

Pz.Jg.Abt.200 had two companies with 7,5cm Pak on Hotchkiss chassis.

/Christoph
Thanks for the answer. This was in 1943 while it was formed with 2 Kompanien, am I right? If so, as Klaucke was Stellv.Führer der 3. Kompanie/ Pz.Jäg.Abt.200, in 1944, what did he/ his Kompanie had equipped? Many thanks in Advance.

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Re: Panzerjäger-Abteilung 200

Post by Christoph Awender » 16 Jul 2010 22:03

Hello

At the moment I am in the progress of sorting all the files so I am sure Martin Block has more additional information.
On.1.11.1944 the Abteilung reports 3 le.Pz.Jg.IV and 6 Pz.Jg.Hotchkiss (f).

/Christoph

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Re: Panzerjäger-Abteilung 200

Post by Martin Block » 17 Jul 2010 12:22

Well, let me see what I can do :)

Pz.Jg.Abt. 200 was formed with Stab and 2 Pz.Jg. companies in late June 1943 using the 1./Pz.Jg.Abt. 113 (113. I.D.) and 1. Pz./Jg.Abt. 305 (305. I.D.). Each company received 12 - 8,8 cm Pak 43/41 on 'Spreitzlafette'. This remained unchanged until mid May 1944 when Pz.Jg.Abt. 200 received orders to exchange 12 of its Pak 43/41 against 12 more modern 8,8 cm Pak 43 on 'Kreuzlafette' with the III./A.R. 177 (77. Inf.Div.).
I do not know if those 12 Pak 43 were then concentrated in one company, or if both companies received a share of them.
During June 1944 losses of 8,8 cm Pak were compensated by a delivery of some 8,8 cm Flak guns (at least 2 per company).
After losing most of its guns during the retreat from France Pz.Jg.Abt. 200 was reorganized In October 1944 in accordance with a Pz.Jg.Abt. for a 'Pz.Div. 44' with
Stab & Stabskp.
1. and 2. Pz.Jg.(Stu.Gesch.) Kp.
3. Pz.Jg.(mot.Z.) Kp.
Versorg.Kp.
But instead of receiving new StuG or Jagdpz. the unit initially got what was left of the s/p guns on converted French Hotchkiss tank chassis from the former Stu.Gesch.Abt. 200 plus a few remaining Jagdpz. IV L/48 from Pz.Jg.Lehr-Abt. 130. The 3. Kp. received several new 8,8 cm Pak 43 plus a platoon of ex-Russian 85/88 mm Flak. The latter however were a few weeks later replaced, when a delivery of German build 7,5 cm Pak 40 arrived.
The Hotchkiss s/p guns disappeared during Nov./Dec. 1944 and in early January 1945 finally 17 new Pz. IV/70(V) arrived for the 1. and 2. Kp.

From January 1945 until the end of the war the 1. and 2. Kp. mainly operated the Pz. IV/70(V) and the few still remainig Jagdpz. IV L/48, while the 3. Kp. had a mix of 7,5 cm Pak 40 and 8,8 cm Pak 43. During Feb./Mar. 1945 a single StuG III appeared briefly with the 2. Kp., and in March 1945 the 1. Kp. picked up 2 'Marder' s/p guns of some sort from a yet unknown source.

Martin Block

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Re: Panzerjäger-Abteilung 200

Post by Bart V. » 17 Jul 2010 19:43

Martin Block wrote:Well, let me see what I can do :)

Pz.Jg.Abt. 200 was formed with Stab and 2 Pz.Jg. companies in late June 1943 using the 1./Pz.Jg.Abt. 113 (113. I.D.) and 1. Pz./Jg.Abt. 305 (305. I.D.). Each company received 12 - 8,8 cm Pak 43/41 on 'Spreitzlafette'. This remained unchanged until mid May 1944 when Pz.Jg.Abt. 200 received orders to exchange 12 of its Pak 43/41 against 12 more modern 8,8 cm Pak 43 on 'Kreuzlafette' with the III./A.R. 177 (77. Inf.Div.).
I do not know if those 12 Pak 43 were then concentrated in one company, or if both companies received a share of them.
During June 1944 losses of 8,8 cm Pak were compensated by a delivery of some 8,8 cm Flak guns (at least 2 per company).
After losing most of its guns during the retreat from France Pz.Jg.Abt. 200 was reorganized In October 1944 in accordance with a Pz.Jg.Abt. for a 'Pz.Div. 44' with
Stab & Stabskp.
1. and 2. Pz.Jg.(Stu.Gesch.) Kp.
3. Pz.Jg.(mot.Z.) Kp.
Versorg.Kp.
But instead of receiving new StuG or Jagdpz. the unit initially got what was left of the s/p guns on converted French Hotchkiss tank chassis from the former Stu.Gesch.Abt. 200 plus a few remaining Jagdpz. IV L/48 from Pz.Jg.Lehr-Abt. 130. The 3. Kp. received several new 8,8 cm Pak 43 plus a platoon of ex-Russian 85/88 mm Flak. The latter however were a few weeks later replaced, when a delivery of German build 7,5 cm Pak 40 arrived.
The Hotchkiss s/p guns disappeared during Nov./Dec. 1944 and in early January 1945 finally 17 new Pz. IV/70(V) arrived for the 1. and 2. Kp.

From January 1945 until the end of the war the 1. and 2. Kp. mainly operated the Pz. IV/70(V) and the few still remainig Jagdpz. IV L/48, while the 3. Kp. had a mix of 7,5 cm Pak 40 and 8,8 cm Pak 43. During Feb./Mar. 1945 a single StuG III appeared briefly with the 2. Kp., and in March 1945 the 1. Kp. picked up 2 'Marder' s/p guns of some sort from a yet unknown source.

Martin Block
Many thanks, Martin. That is some wonderful information! I asked this question due the Ritterkreuz of Werner Klaucke, who recieved it around Caen? Because under his command 29 tanks were shot since D-Day as I can remember well. The third company is only mentioned in October 1944, was the third company formed in May 1944 while it recieved order to exchange guns (although you only speak about 'two (both)' companies in May 1944) as Klaucke recieved his RK as Stellv. Führer des 3./ Pz.Jg.Abt. 200 on 12 July 1944?

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Re: Panzerjäger-Abteilung 200

Post by Martin Block » 18 Jul 2010 08:33

Well, all 'official' documents and reports of the 21. Pz.Div. I had looked at for my post do indeed show Pz.Jg.Abt. 200 with only a 1. and 2. Kp. until October 1944. But it seems as if 'unofficially' the division had made some changes which were not reflected in the reports to the higher authorities. At least I just found a note on page 16 in the recent divisional history by Werner Kortenhaus telling Pz.Jg.Abt. 200 had a 1., 2. and 3. Kp. with 8 - 8,8 cm Pak each instead of just 2 companies with 12 Pak each. Similar applied to the Stu.Gesch.Abt. 200 which 'officially' reported 4 s/p gun companies but 'unofficially' had organized them into 1. - 5. Kp.

Martin Block

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Re: Panzerjäger-Abteilung 200

Post by Kelvin » 21 Jul 2010 05:49

During Normandy invasion, 21. Pz-Division possessed both Pz.Jäg.Abt. 200 and Sturmgeschütz-Brigade 200 at the same time.

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Re: Panzerjäger-Abteilung 200

Post by Rui » 07 May 2011 22:42

Martin Block wrote:Well, all 'official' documents and reports of the 21. Pz.Div. I had looked at for my post do indeed show Pz.Jg.Abt. 200 with only a 1. and 2. Kp. until October 1944. But it seems as if 'unofficially' the division had made some changes which were not reflected in the reports to the higher authorities. At least I just found a note on page 16 in the recent divisional history by Werner Kortenhaus telling Pz.Jg.Abt. 200 had a 1., 2. and 3. Kp. with 8 - 8,8 cm Pak each instead of just 2 companies with 12 Pak each. Similar applied to the Stu.Gesch.Abt. 200 which 'officially' reported 4 s/p gun companies but 'unofficially' had organized them into 1. - 5. Kp.

Martin Block
Already read in Luck's Panzer Commander, the following:
"Major Becker, with all five companies of his Assault-gun Battalion 200, was attached to me and was to work closely with the grenadiers."

In Becker's StuG.Abt. 200, were only 7,5-cm-Pak 40 & 10,5-cm-lFH 18/40 on Hotchkiss chassis? Or also 7,5-cm-Pak 40 & 10,5-cm-lFH 16/4 on FCM chassis?

Regards,
Rui Esteves
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Re: Panzerjäger-Abteilung 200

Post by Alanmccoubrey » 08 May 2011 11:40

Rui, Only the Hotchkiss vehicles, it isn't known where the FCM's went when they were replaced.
Alan

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Re: Panzerjäger-Abteilung 200

Post by Rui » 08 May 2011 15:34

Hi Alan
Did you know, how were distributed vehicles in StuG.Abt. 200?

In Spielberg's Beute-Kraftfahrzeuge und -Panzer der deutschen Wehrmacht appears the following:
7,5-cm-Pak 40 auf Fahrgestell Panzerkampfwagen 38 H (f) (60 produced)
10,5-cm-lFH 18/40 auf Geschützwagen 38 H (f) (48 produced)
Großer Funk- und Befehlspanzer 38 H (f) (24 produced)

The total will be 108 SP guns + 24 Radio/Command vehicles, probably not all in Stug.Abt. 200?

Regards,
Rui
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Re: Panzerjäger-Abteilung 200

Post by Alanmccoubrey » 08 May 2011 18:25

Rui, Perigault lists only four batteries but by the time of Operation Goodwood there were five. Each of the five batteries had 4 x Pak40 and 6 x 105mm vehicles and the HQ had a single Pak40 vehicle.That gives a total of 21 x Pak40 and 30 x 105mm. I have never seen the Großer Funk- und Befehlspanzer 38 H (f) listed as being part of StuG Abt 200 .
Alan

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Re: Panzerjäger-Abteilung 200

Post by Rui » 08 May 2011 21:14

Martin Block wrote: But instead of receiving new StuG or Jagdpz. the unit initially got what was left of the s/p guns on converted French Hotchkiss tank chassis from the former Stu.Gesch.Abt. 200 plus a few remaining Jagdpz. IV L/48 from Pz.Jg.Lehr-Abt. 130. The 3. Kp. received several new 8,8 cm Pak 43 plus a platoon of ex-Russian 85/88 mm Flak. The latter however were a few weeks later replaced, when a delivery of German build 7,5 cm Pak 40 arrived.
The Hotchkiss s/p guns disappeared during Nov./Dec. 1944 and in early January 1945 finally 17 new Pz. IV/70(V) arrived for the 1. and 2. Kp.

Are this Hotchkiss SP guns that appears in the following?
From the SECTION IV.- - Captured Equipment [285 units] on the Western Front
(http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=79411)
Ron Klages wrote: 7.5cm Pak40 auf Hotchkiss with 23 units on the Western Front

JUNE 1944:
StuG.Abt. 200 with 17 units

SEPTEMBER 1944:
PJAbt. 200 with 6 units


10.5cm FH18 auf Hotchkiss with 24 units on the Western Front

JUNE 1944:
StuG. Abt. 200 with 24 units
(my edit)
Also in Jentz's Panzer Tracts No.10: Artillerie Selbstfahrlafetten, mentions that all 10.5cm leFH16 und 18 auf Hotchkiss were lost before or during the Falaise Pocket in August 1944.


Regards,
Rui Esteves
Last edited by Rui on 08 May 2011 22:01, edited 1 time in total.
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T. Jentz - "Becker Funnies": All Vehicles Converted by Alfred Becker
Martin Block - Bible with all allocations from H.Za to the units
Martin Block - Bible with all Lage (Pz; StuG; Art & Pak; Berge; Beute; gp Kfz)

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Re: Panzerjäger-Abteilung 200

Post by Rui » 08 May 2011 21:54

Hi Alan

In Jentz's Panzer Tracts No.10: Artillerie Selbstfahrlafetten, shows that were converted only 24 Geschützpanzer le.F.H. 16 und 18 Hotchkiss. That matches with Ron Klages post. Maybe it happened something similar to Pz.Jg.Abt. 200, the same total of guns but redistributed in 5 companies, in a reduced number in each. Could be the following OoB?

Stab = 1 x 7.5cm Pak40 auf Ho
1. - 5. = 16 x 7.5cm Pak40 auf Ho; 24 x 10.5cm leFH18 auf Ho

(Total = 17 x 7.5cm Pak40 auf Ho; 24 x 10.5cm leFH18 auf Ho)


Spielberg states that were produced 24 Großer Funk- und Befehlspanzer 38 H (f) and were used in the Hotchkiss SP Artillery Batteries. In page 170 appears a photo of one vehicle with a tactical symbol of a Stabbatterie in a StuG.Abt. But it appears that the numbers of conversions in Spielberg book about this vehicle and others don't match with Jentz numbers...

:idea: The Großer Funk- und Befehlspanzer 38 H (f) (page 170) appears to have similar markings like in 8cm Raketen-Vielfachwerfer auf So (page 89): Inverted triangle, camouflage, tactical symbol of Stabbatterie in a StuG.Abt...


Regards,
Rui
My Christmas Book Wishlist:

T. Jentz - "Becker Funnies": All Vehicles Converted by Alfred Becker
Martin Block - Bible with all allocations from H.Za to the units
Martin Block - Bible with all Lage (Pz; StuG; Art & Pak; Berge; Beute; gp Kfz)

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Re: Panzerjäger-Abteilung 200

Post by Alanmccoubrey » 09 May 2011 10:31

Rui, I wouldn't agree that they would redistribute the vehicles to create the fifth battery. They would have been more likely to have reduced the number of batteries after lossing vehicles against 6th Airborne Division. The fifth battery joined the Abteilung sometime between the date of the June report used by Ron Klages and the start of Operation Goodwood, I wish I knew when but don't.
As for the Großer Funk- und Befehlspanzer 38 H (f) the picture on Page 170 also carries markings form the Schelle Bragde West period, that big triangle on the superstructure side, placing the date well before the Normandy fighting so who can say where they went between the picture being taken and the following year, very much the same as we have lost the FCM conversions. It is odd that no one has come across them though isn't it ?
Alan

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