Panzerjäger-Abteilung 200

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Kelvin
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Re: Panzerjäger-Abteilung 200

Post by Kelvin » 09 May 2011 19:32

Rui wrote:Hi Alan

In Jentz's Panzer Tracts No.10: Artillerie Selbstfahrlafetten, shows that were converted only 24 Geschützpanzer le.F.H. 16 und 18 Hotchkiss. That matches with Ron Klages post. Maybe it happened something similar to Pz.Jg.Abt. 200, the same total of guns but redistributed in 5 companies, in a reduced number in each. Could be the following OoB?

Stab = 1 x 7.5cm Pak40 auf Ho
1. - 5. = 16 x 7.5cm Pak40 auf Ho; 24 x 10.5cm leFH18 auf Ho

(Total = 17 x 7.5cm Pak40 auf Ho; 24 x 10.5cm leFH18 auf Ho)


Spielberg states that were produced 24 Großer Funk- und Befehlspanzer 38 H (f) and were used in the Hotchkiss SP Artillery Batteries. In page 170 appears a photo of one vehicle with a tactical symbol of a Stabbatterie in a StuG.Abt. But it appears that the numbers of conversions in Spielberg book about this vehicle and others don't match with Jentz numbers...

:idea: The Großer Funk- und Befehlspanzer 38 H (f) (page 170) appears to have similar markings like in 8cm Raketen-Vielfachwerfer auf So (page 89): Inverted triangle, camouflage, tactical symbol of Stabbatterie in a StuG.Abt...


Regards,
Rui

Hi, Rui, in accordance with the OOB chart of 21. Pz division on June 1 1944 and on Aug 1 1944, 200.Sturmgeschutz Abteilung only had four kompanies :

On June 1 1944 they totally had 17 x Pak -40 on Hotchkiss chassis and 24 x 10.5 cm haubitze on Hotchkiss, organized in four batteries.

On Aug 1 1944, they totally had 8 x Pak -40 on Hotchkiss chassis and 19 x 10.5 cm haubitze on Hotchkiss organized in four batteries.

Unfortunately, that part on July 1 1944 is too dirty for me to tell you what they had.

So, no such thing as fifth kompanie. :|

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Re: Panzerjäger-Abteilung 200

Post by Alanmccoubrey » 09 May 2011 19:48

Kelvin, the battle maps for Goodwood show five batteries of StuG Abt 200 and I have aphotgraph of one of the Hotchkiss SP's marked with the 5th Battery sign.

Image
Alan

Rui
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Re: Panzerjäger-Abteilung 200

Post by Rui » 10 May 2011 00:21

Hi Alan

Some interesting text about Becker's StuG.Abt. 200 during Operation Goodwood from Daglish, Ian. Operation Goodwood: The Great Tank Charge, July 1944.
Overseeing each battery was an armoured command vehicle, from which the whole unit would be orchestrated by means of Becker's special ultra-low frequency radios (operating on frequencies not monitored by Allied radio interception).
“Becker was a pillar of support. Arriving at the Frénouville command post, he was able to give a full account of his unit, due to the unique low-frequency radios which linked his companies (and were not subject to Allied eavesdropping). Furthest forward, 1. Batterie had been wiped out. Its antitank guns in Cuverville and howitzers around Démouville were reported lost by Hauptmann Eichorn, whose armoured command vehicle was the sole survivor of the battery. ”
Could this "armoured command vehicle" be the Großer Funk- und Befehlspanzer 38 H (f)?

Rui Esteves
My Christmas Book Wishlist:

T. Jentz - "Becker Funnies": All Vehicles Converted by Alfred Becker
Martin Block - Bible with all allocations from H.Za to the units
Martin Block - Bible with all Lage (Pz; StuG; Art & Pak; Berge; Beute; gp Kfz)

Martin Block
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Re: Panzerjäger-Abteilung 200

Post by Martin Block » 10 May 2011 11:10

Gentlemen,

Documented facts about observation and command and controll vehicles with Stu.Gesch.Abt. 200 are:
Until 1.12.1943 allways 6 'Beob.Pz.Renault' respectively 'Beob.Pz.Ren.Chen.' = Kleiner Fu. u. Beob.Pz. (UE) see Spielberger 'Beutepanzer' p 116
Last reported on 1.1.1944 (down to 5), then apparently replaced by
1.2.1944 = 1 Fu.Pz.Ho.
1.3.1944 = 1 Fu. P107
1.4.1944 = 2 Fu. P107
1.5.1944 = 2 Fu. P107
1.6.1944 = 6 Fu. P107
1.7.1944 = 6 Fu. P107
1.8.1944 = 2 Fu. P107
1.9.1944 = ---
So if you ask me, the on time during which one can be relatively sure that at least a single Großer Funk- und Befehlspanzer 38 H (f) might have been in use, was sometime during Jan/Feb 1944.
Apart from that single exception Fu.Pz.Ho. at no time do appear anywhere else in the monthly status reports of the 21. Pz.Div.
One can continue speculating about what Stu.Gesch.Abt. 200 might have had during the summer of 1944 and might have not reported for whatever reasons, but ...

Martin Block

Alanmccoubrey
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Re: Panzerjäger-Abteilung 200

Post by Alanmccoubrey » 10 May 2011 16:44

Martin, Could this be another example of Spielberger giving the numbers of vehicles that it was intended to convert as opposed to the numbers actually converted ?
Alan

Kelvin
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Re: Panzerjäger-Abteilung 200

Post by Kelvin » 10 May 2011 18:39

A little bit off topic, but I think 200. Sturmgeschutz abteilung with French equipment seemed to have modelled on German StuG.Brig. Pak 40 on Hotchkiss like StuG III and 10.5 cm haubitze on Hotchkiss look like StuH 42.

And other unit also like this : 155.Panzer Artillerie regiment neither possessed Wespe nor Hummel but have both 10.5 cm and 15 cm haubitze on French Lorraine chassis.

And its each PanzerGrenadier Regiment also had an infantry gun company : 15 cm sIG on French Lorraine instead of Grille.

I./Pz.Gren.Rgt 125 & 192 had been equipped with P107 instead of sd.kfz.251 series. However , in accordance with OOB chart on June 1 1944, they did not have offensive weapon like sd.kfz.251/9 ( 7.5 cm Kwk on SPW) and also did not see any mortar on SPW like 251/2 and what I only find was 3.7 cm on P107, look like German sd.kfz.251/10 ( 3.7 cm Pak on SPW)

Martin Block
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Re: Panzerjäger-Abteilung 200

Post by Martin Block » 10 May 2011 20:11

Well Alan,

unfortunately I have so far never seen any production documents from 'Baustab Becker' and I do not know where Spielberger found his figures. But it indeed remains strange why quite a few of the supposedly converted AFVs remain unaccounted for. Let's just hope those documents will /re)appear from an archive one day.

Regards

Martin Block

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Re: Panzerjäger-Abteilung 200

Post by Alanmccoubrey » 10 May 2011 21:35

Thanks Martin.
Alan

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Re: Panzerjäger-Abteilung 200

Post by Rui » 10 May 2011 23:23

Martin Block wrote:Gentlemen,

Documented facts about observation and command and controll vehicles with Stu.Gesch.Abt. 200 are:
Until 1.12.1943 allways 6 'Beob.Pz.Renault' respectively 'Beob.Pz.Ren.Chen.' = Kleiner Fu. u. Beob.Pz. (UE) see Spielberger 'Beutepanzer' p 116
Last reported on 1.1.1944 (down to 5), then apparently replaced by
1.2.1944 = 1 Fu.Pz.Ho.
1.3.1944 = 1 Fu. P107
1.4.1944 = 2 Fu. P107
1.5.1944 = 2 Fu. P107
1.6.1944 = 6 Fu. P107
1.7.1944 = 6 Fu. P107
1.8.1944 = 2 Fu. P107
1.9.1944 = ---
So if you ask me, the on time during which one can be relatively sure that at least a single Großer Funk- und Befehlspanzer 38 H (f) might have been in use, was sometime during Jan/Feb 1944.
Apart from that single exception Fu.Pz.Ho. at no time do appear anywhere else in the monthly status reports of the 21. Pz.Div.
One can continue speculating about what Stu.Gesch.Abt. 200 might have had during the summer of 1944 and might have not reported for whatever reasons, but ...

Martin Block

Danke, Martin
Once more, you saved the day. :milwink:

By any chance, do you have similar information about the observation/command/radio vehicles in the Panzer-Artillerie-Regiment 155?

Spielberg's book: (page 139)
Großer Funk- und Beobachtungspanzer auf Lorraine-Schlepper (f) (30 produced) (used with 15-cm-sFH 13/1 Geschützwagen auf Lorraine-Fahrgestell)

Here the photo from page 139.
Image
(link from: http://forum.valka.cz/viewtopic.php/tit ... Lf/t/38781)

In Panzerwrecks 8: Normandy 1 (pages: 12-13-14) appears photos about the Großer Funk- und Beobachtungspanzer auf Lorraine-Schlepper (f). The three photos are credited as Library and Archives of Canada (LAC). From page 13:
..."Gross Funk und Beobachtungspanzer auf Lorraine-Schlepper" by the Germans, belonged to Pz.Art.Rgt.155 of 21.Panzer-Division. The Regiment had 4 Beob.Pz. Lorraine and it is believed they were assigned to the Abteilungsstabe of II./ and III./Pz.Art.Rgt. 155, two per Abteilung.
... A tactical symbol for a self propelled artillery unit...
Here the photo from page 12.
Image
(link from: http://forum.valka.cz/viewtopic.php/tit ... Lf/t/38781)


Note: I also saw the differences about the numbers of conversions between Spielberg book and Jentz's Panzer Tracts No.10: Artillerie Selbstfahrlafetten. Maybe Jentz could do a new Panzer Tracts book about Becker conversions. Suggested title: "Becker Funnies" :D

Rui
My Christmas Book Wishlist:

T. Jentz - "Becker Funnies": All Vehicles Converted by Alfred Becker
Martin Block - Bible with all allocations from H.Za to the units
Martin Block - Bible with all Lage (Pz; StuG; Art & Pak; Berge; Beute; gp Kfz)

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Re: Panzerjäger-Abteilung 200

Post by Martin Block » 11 May 2011 11:11

A 'Becker's Funnies' Panzer Tracts surely would be a great idea Rui :milwink: It definitely would be on my wish list too!

Pz.Art.Rgt. 155 started with 9 Beob.Pz.Lorraine and 2 Beob.Pz.Renault. The latter had disappeared by 1.12.1943.
The 9 Beob.Pz. Lorraine remained in service until 1.4.1944. For unknown reasons the figure had dropped to only 4 by 1.6.1944, but suddenly rose again to 13 during July 1944.
All 13 were still present by 1.9.1944. One month later all were gone.

Martin Block

P.S.: I'm just beginning to wonder if the designation 'Beob.Pz.Lorraine' might have been used in those reports both for Großer Funk- und Beobachtungspanzer auf Lorrain-Schlepper (f) and Lorraine-Schlepper 37 L (f), Ausf. VBCP als behelfsmäßiger Beobachtungspanzer (see Spielberger p. 125/126)?
Speculation on my part: Initially 9 of the smaller open topped VBCP, then replaced by 4 larger fully armored ones, and finally both( 4 + 9 = 13). Have no evidence for that, just a wild guess.

Rui
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Re: Panzerjäger-Abteilung 200

Post by Rui » 11 May 2011 23:51

Excellent, Martin

For those, who want to see the photo from Spielberger (p. 125) with Kleiner Funk- und Beobachtungspanzer auf Infanterieschlepper UE (f) and the Lorraine-Schlepper 37L (f), Ausführung VBCP als Beobachtungspanzer accompanied with several Renault UE and 10,5-cm-leFH15/4 auf Geschützwagen Lorraine-Schlepper (f) 2. Ausführung (Becker) could see it at a topic initiated by me just a few days ago. But now is just obsolete, my questions were solved in here.... :milwink:

(my edit):
StuG.Abt. 200 & Pz.Art.Rgt. 155: Funk- und Beobachungspanzer:
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 7&t=177818

Rui
Last edited by Rui on 12 May 2011 00:38, edited 1 time in total.
My Christmas Book Wishlist:

T. Jentz - "Becker Funnies": All Vehicles Converted by Alfred Becker
Martin Block - Bible with all allocations from H.Za to the units
Martin Block - Bible with all Lage (Pz; StuG; Art & Pak; Berge; Beute; gp Kfz)

Rui
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Re: Panzerjäger-Abteilung 200

Post by Rui » 12 May 2011 00:02

Panzerwrecks 8: Normandy 1. From page 13:
Canadian Intell came across this insual armoured vehicle abandoned between Trun and Falaise called a "Gross Funk und Beobachtungspanzer auf Lorraine-Schlepper" by the Germans...
Martin Block wrote:
Pz.Art.Rgt. 155 started with 9 Beob.Pz.Lorraine and 2 Beob.Pz.Renault. The latter had disappeared by 1.12.1943.
The 9 Beob.Pz. Lorraine remained in service until 1.4.1944. For unknown reasons the figure had dropped to only 4 by 1.6.1944, but suddenly rose again to 13 during July 1944.
All 13 were still present by 1.9.1944. One month later all were gone.

Martin Block
Strange...During July 1944 and in 1.9.1944, all the same number, 13. So this vehicle abandoned and photographed by the Canadians, was lost after 1.9.1944? Or was one of the "unofficial" vehicle/fresh-factory replacement? Explaining the same number vehicles during that period. (I'm just thinking, not asking for an answer)

Note: I also saw that the 21.Panzer-Division probably received some new SPW during the summer 1944.
From AHF topic: "21. Panzerdivision Normandy"
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 0&t=176411
Martin Block wrote:What I can tell you is that German records of the Gen.Insp.d.Pz.Tr. do not show a single Sd.Kfz. 250/251 type SPW being shipped as replacement to 21. Pz.Div. during July/August 1944.

On 1.7.1944 I./Pz.Gren.Rgt. 125 reported some 97 SPW on French built chassis and 0 German SPW.
On 1.8.1944 I./Pz.Gren.Rgt. 125 reported some 85 SPW on French built chassis and 0 German SPW.

Don't know about massive AFV losses of the regiment during 'Goodwood', but if they actually had happened, any replacements until 1.8.1944 surely must have been French build.

But would any allocation of replacements have been possible during the summer of 1944? Does anyone know if French SPW conversions were still carried out at all by June/July 1944?
Rui
My Christmas Book Wishlist:

T. Jentz - "Becker Funnies": All Vehicles Converted by Alfred Becker
Martin Block - Bible with all allocations from H.Za to the units
Martin Block - Bible with all Lage (Pz; StuG; Art & Pak; Berge; Beute; gp Kfz)

Rui
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Re: Panzerjäger-Abteilung 200

Post by Rui » 12 May 2011 00:35

Alanmccoubrey wrote:Kelvin, the battle maps for Goodwood show five batteries of StuG Abt 200 and I have aphotgraph of one of the Hotchkiss SP's marked with the 5th Battery sign.
Alan, is correct.

Becker's Stu.Gesch.Abt. 200 during Operation Goodwood from Daglish, Ian. Operation Goodwood: The Great Tank Charge, July 1944.
In theory, the five batteries of Sturmgeschütz Abteilung 200 each had ten guns mounted on Hotchkiss tracked chassis: six of these ten carrying long 7.5cm Pak 40 antitank guns; the remaining four dwarfed by 10.5cm leFH18/40 howitzers. In practice, the equipment varied from time to time.
Also from the same book:
??/June/1944 = 4x batteries operational with 17 SP 7.5cm Pak 40 and 24 SP 10.5cm leFH18/40 & 16 (Hotchkiss)
18/July/1944 = 5x batteries operational with ????


In 21. Panzer-Division In Normandy, June 1944 from Fire and Fury Games website, (Battlefront WWII Orders of Battle) (http://www.fireandfury.com/orbats/late21pzd6jun44.pdf), appears some data about the batteries:
At D-Day, the 5./Stu.Gesch.Abt. 200, was training, after that was used as a reserve. Being in combat in July.
Also mentions a 6.batterie being formed, but was disbanded and used as replacements in the rest of Stu.Gesch.Abt. 200.


Rui
My Christmas Book Wishlist:

T. Jentz - "Becker Funnies": All Vehicles Converted by Alfred Becker
Martin Block - Bible with all allocations from H.Za to the units
Martin Block - Bible with all Lage (Pz; StuG; Art & Pak; Berge; Beute; gp Kfz)

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maxdenormandie
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Re: Panzerjäger-Abteilung 200

Post by maxdenormandie » 15 May 2012 10:02

have you more pics of stug 200 in normandy please?

Rui
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Re: Panzerjäger-Abteilung 200

Post by Rui » 09 Feb 2015 20:51

maxdenormandie wrote:have you more pics of stug 200 in normandy please?
In the end of this newsreel, you have a visit to 21.PD, with SP AT Full-tracked vehicles, SP AT Half-tracked vehicles... :milwink:
RZM Videoclips wrote:Die Deutsche Wochenschau No. 699 shown in theaters on Jan. 26, 1944. This segment highlights General Erwin Rommel inspecting units defending the Atlantic Wall.

Shot List:
-Generalfeldmarschall Rommel stands over map on table beneath chandelier hearing situation report on the West.

-Wehrmacht is reportedly ready for any enemy landing on coast; Rommel sees preparedness himself on visit to bunker, accompanied by General der Artillerie Jodl, and continues tour of inspection by boat, when transferring to a Vorpostenboot from harbour tender marked L9.

-After voyage he comes ashore at quay.

-Next visit is to a Luftwaffe airbase where he walks along wet runway accompanied by Oberstleutnant Josef Priller holder of Oak Leaves to Knights Cross .

-Next visit is to Panzer unit Sturmgeschütz Abteilung 200 attached to 21. Panzer Division.

Rommel Inspects the Atlantic Wall 1944 - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AFV4Lgb06_8
My Christmas Book Wishlist:

T. Jentz - "Becker Funnies": All Vehicles Converted by Alfred Becker
Martin Block - Bible with all allocations from H.Za to the units
Martin Block - Bible with all Lage (Pz; StuG; Art & Pak; Berge; Beute; gp Kfz)

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