Certain heroism of Wehrmacht & Waffen SS in WW2

[ckleisch]

Interesting topic that is always going to stir the emotions of combatants of all sides. i am sitting here now looking at 64 pages of attrocities i have in a booklet. Ever combatant army involved killed prisoners by the hundreds and thousands. No one was immune whether they are British, Canadian, United states, Russia, Italy, German, Dutch or Yugoslavia. Everyone has their skeletons in the closet. Unfortunately, in war the loosers are ones punished. Yes, it appears the Russians and Germans were the most documented. what about the 50,000 deaths of german soldiers by starvation in the American Remagen camps. how about the Dachau prisoner executions?

[Peeter]

I have not heard about waffenSS or Wehrmacht killing prisoners, at least in fronts where estonian soldiers were in action. I have only heard it from Soviet authors and they lie alot, this is easy to proof.
To catsch Russian tank crews and burn them alive- come on! Yes, I have seen this in one Russian war-movie.
I do know that they did help wounded russians.
And I do know that Soviet soldiers and comissars killed wounded and captured enemies. Sticking out the eyes was not uncommon at all....
And they also killed civilians, including small children.
So, no doubt there were war crimes in waffen-ss (Dirlewanger!!) but in Soviet side it was VERY common.

[ISU-152]

I have not heard about waffenSS or Wehrmacht killing prisoners, at least in fronts where estonian soldiers were in action.

Check in with Holocaust section. Roberto has plenty materials on this matter.

I have only heard it from Soviet authors and they lie alot, this is easy to proof.

If we can't trust soviet authors, why should we trust german authors and those others who deny german attrocities? :roll:

To catsch Russian tank crews and burn them alive-
come on! Yes, I have seen this in one Russian war-movie.

It would be particularly useful if instead of watching popular propaganda science fiction films you would read serious books on this matter.

I do know that they did help wounded russians.

How? :roll: Mercifully killing everyone?

[Fred]

If we can't trust soviet authors, why should we trust german authors and those others who deny german attrocities?

According to yourself russian historians can´t be trusted:

Russia load their brains with such issues as correct and thorough research on the subject of WWII. Most of papers are still classified. Why? There are still many people living or dead who benefit greatly from telling lies and speculating on the subject of history.
Until recently, I too genuinely believed that captain Lunin actually torpedoed "Tirpitz". It is due to this forum and its members that I have found out that his Hero of Soviet Union star is nothing more than a star awarded over a pack of lies.

[Eightball]

Sturm
Funny. I always thought that the 'reds' were feared more than the Americans.

I think everyone who can kill you should be feared, but I get your point.

Timo Worst
The Germans started the war, they were the aggressor.

That's true, but some of the early killed PoW's were regular soliders sent out to do their job. And seing their comrades murdered like that must surely have brought out hatred.

[Achtung Panzer Buff]

Read what I wrote, I said I read it. In your immense wisdom, tell me why Kampfgruppe Peiper, if they indeed had to follow orders to "fight in the old SS tradition", meaning no prisoners as you insinuate, why they killed "only" 70 out of over 500 surrendering Americans? If they had orders "not to waste time with prisoners", why were over 400 POW's guarded and led to the rear into German captivity? Did they refuse to follow orders? ?

Thanks for proving my point! Killed 70 out of ~500 prisonsers at least a few SS men must have been fighting in the old SS tradition at least some fo the time.

By no means did the Waffen SS always kill prisoners. However, it did happen far to often. Yes prisoners were shot on occassion by other armies too, I gave a specific example of that above.

Fact is indeed that POW's and civilians were killed in the Ardennes, but instead of trying to find out what exactly happened, you just say "hey, their SS. What do you expect?", condemning the whole lot. Just like the prosecutors and judges did 56 years ago. The truth is not that easy.?

I'm glad you don't jump to conclusions and put words in my mouth. :roll:

I'm sure many SS have regrets about what they did, I'm sure some are honest regrets for reasons similar to what happened with the minister I mentioned above. I'm also sure some couldn't have cared less except for the fact they did lose after all...

...Yes, like I said, they're human beings. Is it typical SS or typical German if you "couldn't have cared less except for the fact they did lose after all"? Or is it perhaps typical human behaviour, shown all over the world, including Americans? And what gives you the right to judge SS vets? What gives you the right to say "I'm sure some are honest regrets"? What gives you to right to say some? Why not many or all?

For starters it's a discussion board and it's part of the topic of this thread that gives me and anyone else the right to express their view within the context of this thread. My remark was intended to convey that I DO NOT lump every SS man into the same bucket. If discussion is considered judgement in your eyes sounds like you might be a little too sensitive about the subject. Any particular reason why?

However, it's clear you've already jumped to your conclusion...I think if you actually knew how many times I've defended the Waffen SS in group discussion with my friends you would actually be surprised. Most want to lump the Waffen SS in with the Algermaine SS and we all know what that implies...However, I don't have deliusions about what the Waffen SS was or what it did.

Clearly, you've already made your mind up about my views based on a very small sampling of what's been written here....whatever

8)

[Maple 01]

Most want to lump the Waffen SS in with the Algermaine SS

I'm quite happy to do that, the distinction between the two branches is, as I've said
Ad nauseam, a post-war construct - a chance for the Waffen SS survivors to try and separate themselves form the death camps.

However

"When the British liberated the Belsen concentration camp on 17th April 1945 they found it staffed largely with wounded and recuperating officers and men who had been transferred in on a tempory basis from various battlefield Waffen SS formations, and who continued to sport their unit insignia"

Lumsden, SS Regalia


No matter how much people dislike the Soviets

Hang on, it was the Germans who came to Russia with a Kommisar order and Einsatzkommandos. The main provoction to murder the "reds" came from their own political leaders. Will this discussion ever stop? The Germans started the war, they were the aggressor

Regards



-Nick

[Achtung Panzer Buff]

Well said, Maple and I understand your point but not all of the Waffen members did a tour of death camp duty so their is some seperation.

[ckleisch]

Persuant, to your statements concerning the shootings at Malmedy.The prisoners in question where awaiting trucks after capture at a road junction that slowed the Kampfgruppe required schedule. It is stated that a frustrated Major Werner Poetscke, commander of the 1st SS Panzere battalion stopped (2) Mark IV tanks and directed them into posistion guarding the prisoners. Once, they were in place he ordered one of the commanders, Sgt Hans Siptrott to open fire. sitropp in turn ordered his assistant gunner Pvt Georg Fleps a 21 yr old volunteer from Romania to shoot. he shot one prisoner with a pistol causing the prisoners to shout and jostle. private Kleps fired a second time killing a Medical Officer. Then someone yelled in German Machen Alle Kaput (Kill them All) and machine guns on both tanks opened fire.Afterward the Germans spread out and shot the wounded.Prior to and after this incident other American troops were killed by tank riders as the tanks passed prisoner columns. Piepers units liked to call themselves the "Blowtorch battalion" after they killed 2,500 Russians in the town of Pekartschina. They set them and the village on fire.
Revenge was obtained at the Dachau Prison Camp liberation where the SS members captured and their officers(recent guard replacements) were summarily lined up and shot. Jewish prisoners were armed and allowed to shoot each ss man with a pistol.

[Timo]

Persuant, to your statements concerning the shootings at Malmedy.The prisoners in question where awaiting trucks after capture at a road junction that slowed the Kampfgruppe required schedule. It is stated that a frustrated Major Werner Poetscke, commander of the 1st SS Panzere battalion stopped (2) Mark IV tanks and directed them into posistion guarding the prisoners. Once, they were in place he ordered one of the commanders, Sgt Hans Siptrott to open fire. sitropp in turn ordered his assistant gunner Pvt Georg Fleps a 21 yr old volunteer from Romania to shoot. he shot one prisoner with a pistol causing the prisoners to shout and jostle. private Kleps fired a second time killing a Medical Officer. Then someone yelled in German Machen Alle Kaput (Kill them All) and machine guns on both tanks opened fire.Afterward the Germans spread out and shot the wounded.Prior to and after this incident other American troops were killed by tank riders as the tanks passed prisoner columns. Piepers units liked to call themselves the "Blowtorch battalion" after they killed 2,500 Russians in the town of Pekartschina. They set them and the village on fire.

...I rest my case. you indeed just parrot the lies from the Schawabisch Hall interrogations. Looks like you used Christopher Robbins book as a reliable source. Of the above version of what suposedly happended none is true.

[ckleisch]

The quote on the incident was actually taken from the source A Time of trumpets by Charles B Mac Donald.

In addition i have two sources to confirm that were actually there:
1.) my uncle mothers side- Donald Flippen former Sgt battery A 285th Field Artillery
2.) my uncle fathers side- Friederich Paul Roeder- Pvt. 1st SS Panzergrenadiers- formerly Muhlheim on Main Germany

Both confirm the event. Dont believe can get more credible then that.

[Timo]

In September 2001 I spoke with a German LAH veteran, a former Oberscharführer from Nachrichtenkompanie LAH, who was attached to KG Peiper in the Ardennes. He has his own theory about what happened and I tend to believe he's right. First of all he stated that he can't deny what happened (as many other veterans do). He believes the men in the field were killed by the crew of the present 251's, not by the Panzers. Must say this makes sense to me since he showed me on location why the tanks are out of the question. He also gave me a psychological profile on the men who did it. He said: "imagine these 17-year old grenadiers, green as grass the only thing that makes them feel strong is their gun. A small group of these teenagers is ordered to guard this large group of Americans". He said that he's convinced that the SS-men were probabely more scared of the American prisoners then vise versa. And then all over sudden the Americans start moving. As a reflex the grenadiers opened fire. Like all men without sufficient training would do (whoever trained young recrutes knows this is a fact).

I don't say its right to open fire, no way, but I guess I understand the reflex that made them do it.

After they stopped firing the soldiers realized the consequenses of what they did (they knew the war would be over soon) and they decided to kill all survivors. Had they been battle harden veterans nobody whould have lived to tell, but even this (fortunately) these rookies couldn't do "right".

That, executing survivors, was their real crime. And a crime that was. No doubt about it.

On December 26 2002, a fellow reseacher talked to Hans Siptrott on the phone. Siptrott was one of the defendants of the Malmedy trial as he was the commander of the Panzer that supposedly opened fire on the POW's. He gave yet another version of the events at the Baugnez crossroads which puts the blame for the incident with the Americans. He says that the Americans at Baugnez surrendered to the "Panzerspitze" (front guard) of Peipers advance column. The Panzers, including Peiper, Pötschke and also Siptrott's Panzer IV, had orders to move on as quick as possible so the POW's were told to wait for the infantry that followed the tanks. However, after the German tanks left it took some time before the infantry arrived on the scene and the Americans decided to pick up their guns again and sneak out. At that moment the German infantry did show up. They had received orders by radio from the "Panzerspitze" to collect the waiting prisoners and to move them behind the front. Finding the POW's armed caused quite a shock to the approaching Germans, which resulted in a fire fight which killed many Americans.

This is HIS version of what happened on the Baugnez crossroads on December 17, 1944. But it's as plausible as every other version of what happened there, because the truth cannot be found in the smokescreens which were created after the war.

Sturmbannführer Werner Pötschke, Kommandeur I./SS-PzRgt 1 "LSSAH", had nothing to do with Baugnez. He was a convenient scapegoat for his former comrades who stood trial for Malmédy because he was killed in action in March 1945 and thus could not defend himself.

[heinz kling]

I suggest you guys read his book on Peiper. For details ask Timo, otherwise I will be accused of promoting his book.

[Panzermahn]

ISU-152,

I have never heard of this action. I would be interested in knowing which unit was involved. I think the 5th & 3rd SS were around this area in Spring of 45. If you have some specific information on this I would like to read about.

Carter, could you just believe this guy? He just made up some of the german atrocities so he could justified the russian ones...

This is just great stoat17. Tomorrow I will hear more of these stories about how bad the russkies were for having to resist against a german incursion

I didn't say that it was wrong for the russians to resist the germans..I'm only saying that the Bolsheviks had a habitual practice of comitting a massacre and blame it on the germans because they, the Bolsheviks don't have the balls to admit that the germans are at least kinder and more compassionate than them in CERTAIN CASES. Good example, like the massacre of Katyn and one of the most outrageous lies ever to spill out from the Russian Government back in the 50s, 60s and 70s (i think they learned from Goebbels)...Back in the 60s, the Russian government produce a white paper on the massacre of Polish officers in Katyn by the germans. Not even the poles themselves believed this kind of total bullshit...Until Mr Yeltsin finally had the courage to admit the massacre in 1991


ISU-52,

why don't you defend your heroic Red Bolshevik Naval Commander, Alexander Marinesko of the submarine S-13 for his heroic actions in sinking the 2 german hospital ships in Baltic in 1945? In 1944, the german government broadcast to the russian government to ask the russians to treat the German hospital ships under the protection of the ICRC but the russians said they will fired on any german ships with or without the Red Cross protection..Does Uncle Dzugashvilli awarded Marinesko Hero of the Soviet Union?

[Oleg Grigoryev]

You know midget, it would not kill you to research subject prior to posting http://www.thirdreichforum.com/phpBB2/v ... =marinesko